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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:01 AM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

dmb -

So my question is how long did it take for fence sitting?

For me about 24 hours. My BW is a strong woman, and is not willing to settle for less than she deserves. She wouldn't allow fence sitting - I was either in R or bracing for D. I made the decision to R and have never looked back.

Were you truly in love?

With my BW, yes. With xMOW, no. I was addicted to the positive image she reflected on me.

What about cake eating?

That happened throughout my A. I was still close to my BW while involved in the EA at the same time. The A was about getting my fix. The real life interaction with my wife was about being true to what my soul told me I should hold on to.

Do I have a chance in hell when last week all roads were leading to ending it?

Until it is officially over you always have a chance. With that said, there is IMHO zero chance your WS will clear his fog as long as he has contact with OW. NC is a requirement for clearing your mind and focusing on what you truly want and need.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
dmb364041
♀ Member
Member # 19710
Default  Posted: 10:08 AM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for replying. Not sure what to do, but I think I know what I have to do. I just am sooooooooo scared to doing it.


Me (36) BW
Him FWH (37)
Status in R

DD 4, DD 2yr
D-Day 4-7-08
"Celebrate we will...cause life is short, but sweet for certain." DJM

Posts: 258 | Registered: May 2008
NewMama08
♀ Member
Member # 19532
Default  Posted: 10:09 AM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are the lies and trickle-truths really about not wanting to hurt the BS, or is it more about the WS not wanting to hurt him/herself or the OP, or not wanting to get caught?


FBW (Me)-30
FWH- 29 (WorstChoicesEver)
2 1/2-year old daughter
D-day- April 27, 2008
Working on R

Posts: 229 | Registered: May 2008 | From: NY
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NewMama -

Are the lies and trickle-truths really about not wanting to hurt the BS, or is it more about the WS not wanting to hurt him/herself or the OP, or not wanting to get caught?

I think the answer is it depends. My period of lies/trickle truth was relatively short compared to others I have read about here. But at first it was purely self protection. Once the "cat is out of the bag", I guess I can see it transitioning to "protecting the BS" for some.

I would say, however, that I have noticed a large number of FWS's who, like me, hated conflict. The core reason for the lies and trickle truth in people like myself is driven solely for the purpose of trying to bury the issue so it won't turn into a fight. Telling a hard truth is guaranteed to generate conflict, so I would have run hard from the truth in those situations.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

alone_in_georgia,

You are welcome and I echo what LC has said in regards to how BS can help....

Challenge him to think through his flaws and actions, but allow him to experience his feelings without dismissing them.

Reflect an effort of partnership (both pursuing the same goal of R) versus a competition of him versus a standard.

Support "good behavior" as much as you might criticize "bad behavior".

Help him understand that he resets his "personal integrity" counter every morning. Today is a new day he has a choice to do the right thing with, regardless of past actions.

Help him understand that he defines the best he can give, and as long as he lives up to his own standards he is doing a great job.

Mr.beach was patient and supportive with my healing process and that helped. He is mentaly strong person and told me that past is past, he cannot change that, so he accept it as is.

[This message edited by beach at 12:33 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lilliolly -

The oW he is seeing is 25 (5 years younger than himself) has no children (apparently she doesn't want any, she is not maternal in any way), her XBF she had been with for 7 years left her after he found out about the affair, the OW has a party lifestlyle but sees my xh when she can. He however is going out more drinking more and distancing himself from his family and friends to see her.

Do you think this relationship with her will last??


As long as your WH has a hope (painful maybes - what ifs, could have....etc), it will continue.

What i want to know is why doesn't he want to let go of us completly or is it that he is just being nice as he hates conflict?


Until you say enough is enough and as long as you allow him to do it, he will not let you go.

what things did you say to your BS to keep hanging onto them and the marriage?
My take on this is He knows to just throw a nice words/action here and there.... to give you false hope & mixed message. However, until you firmly put your boundary, he will drag you and family...

[This message edited by beach at 12:49 PM, July 8th (Tuesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
Ingrid
♀ Member
Member # 20126
Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, July 8th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

QUESTIONS PLEASE FOR A FORMER WS HUSBAND:

Please help me with this.

Tonight, after a 3 week separation (my husband and I), I asked my husband to call his stripper to "call it off" then and there, when he was over to fix something in our home tonight. He became furious and said it's none of my business what he's doing when we're separated, (when asked if he's seeing her still, or calling her still), etc., and he said "IT WILL BE MY DECISION WHEN AND IF I DO THAT....YOU CAN'T FORCE ME TO OR DEMAND IT."

Then, I took my phone and phoned the stripper myself when he was sitting there, telling her answering machine "their relationship is completely inappropriate and he has a loving wife and family and he wants to call it off with her." And a little bit more, but politely I might add, and graciously. He became a little angry, but cooled off afterwards then we kissed before he left (passionately), and I told him how much we love him, me and the kids. (Kids were not home tonight)

I can check his cell phone records and he doesn't know it. He makes anywhere from 1-10 calls to her daily. He denies "sex" with her repeatedly, but I think he's lying. This is so upsetting, breaks my heart into a zillion pieces. Can't eat or sleep. We've been married 18 years and have 2 teenaged boys.

Tonight I called him at 6:00 asking him where he was, (he was supposed to be coming over to fix something at 5:00), then he said at first he didn't feel like coming over tonight--then OK "be right there". Then literally 2 minutes later after I called him, he called the stripper. Maybe he was planning a rendevous tonight.

This kills me.

Question: Was I terribly wrong even expecting him to phone the stripper to call it off right then and there in front of me? He knows we, his family love him, but he's immersed in sin at the moment, fog, blaming our marriage, blaming me, for this, for that. Saying I'm the one who kicked him out, so "it's over then". Yes, I asked for a separation as soon as I caught these cell numbers to another woman!!!! TOTAL SHOCK!!! He's also a sex addict for YEARS, (porn).

Question 2: I discovered the number of a strip club and one particular stripper's cell on his cell end of May. He has been calling about 10 times a day to this number since the beginning of May and still is, but all the while denying "sex" outright over and over again.

Am I being completely fooled here? Do think he's lying through his teeth? For instance, yesterday there were about 4 calls, 2 around the noon hour, like 1 and 3, and two in the evening, 9:30 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. I do not trust him of course.

What's the best course of action to take to let him become repentent and WANT to come back to his family and me? What can I do? Total no contact??? Just letting him have a taste of his stripper completely alone in the world without us??? I feel if we don't communicate, our relationship would really deteriorate. He said in an e-mail, "if you think I'm having sex, then just divorce me, but I'm not."

Maybe he wants me to divorce him so he can free? He's very angry it seems at this, at that, because I haven't been working, etc., and has been completely overwhelmed with finances for the past 2 years, but that's no excuse for an affair!!!

Somebody tell me, what should I do? I love him so much but don't want to be a doormat. I need all you guys' experience here, I'd be so grateful. I love my husband, love our family, and don't want it all to end in a shambles. I've already admitted a couple of my faults which I'm working on, through S-ANON. He's so distant, and sneaky.

Please help!


Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: L.A. CA
Ron7127
♂ Member
Member # 10145
Default  Posted: 1:01 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've seen the claim that some WS's make about having still loved their BS while cheating. My question is : How do you define love, then? What does it mean to you that allowed you to do this and still feel love for your BS. I can not understand this, at all.

Posts: 2273 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Minnesota
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 6:50 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ingrid -

Was I terribly wrong even expecting him to phone the stripper to call it off right then and there in front of me?

I would have been shocked if it happened. The problem you are facing is that by contact remaining between him and the OW, there is no opportunity for him to clear his view of the world. He is very foggy because the environment of separation is allowing him to basically continue the A and gives him a false feeling of it being ok because "he's not really married if he's separated".

Am I being completely fooled here? Do think he's lying through his teeth?

Probably. But the bigger question is does it matter whether sex is involved or not. Inappropriate relationships are inappropriate whether physical contact exists or not. My A was an online EA, yet it was just as damaging as any other A here. If I were to continue to have conversations with xMOW, I would never break the cycle.

What's the best course of action to take to let him become repentent and WANT to come back to his family and me? What can I do? Total no contact??? Just letting him have a taste of his stripper completely alone in the world without us???

The reality is you can make anyone wants something. They have to want it on their own. What you can do is to give him the same gift my BW gave me. Don't let him have it both ways. Demand that he's either in or he's out. Either he is 100% dedicated to working on R with you, or you agree to D and move on with your lives separately. Scary? It sure is. But it is the only way to eliminate the behavior he is showing now, which is leaving him happy and everyone else around him miserable.

Somebody tell me, what should I do?

IMHO, the way to resolve this is to force him to commit in one direction or another. You cannot force the direction you want (which is what you tried to do when you called the OW). You can only force him to make a decision instead of floating around feeling free to do what pleases him at the moment.

He needs to be forced to make a choice. If it's you, he is required to immediately go NC with OW (including an NC letter) and show you full transparency. If it's not you, then you need to 180 him and possibly file D papers to show him you are serious about these choices.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
lilliolly
Member
Member # 19647
Default  Posted: 7:11 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the replies, what i don't understand is if my H and his OW think that much of each other then why are they not living together??

Why are they both out like single teenagers drinking all the time and distancing themselves??

Lilliolly


Posts: 71 | Registered: May 2008 | From: England
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:23 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ron -

How do you define love, then? What does it mean to you that allowed you to do this and still feel love for your BS.

I totally understand your confusion on this. As a FWS, I am baffled by my own actions and choices as well. Over time, I have learned about those aspects of my life that I felt were being unmet, and the fact that I would become addicted to those things (positive feedback, being a hero to others, etc.) thus requiring I get my "fix".

It's somewhat like telling an alcoholic "if you love me, you'll quit drinking" or a drug addict "if you love me, you'll stop shooting up". The rational side of the addict knows that quitting their habit is a demonstration of love. But the addictive need they have is so powerful it draws them into the poor behavior. The only way to break the cycle is to obtain the support needed (rehab centers, doctors support, family counseling, etc.).

So for me, I needed to go through IC to break my habit, thus allowing me to properly show the love I have always had for my wife. It has taken a bit of time, but I think I have finally been able to break through enough for Wells to see just how much she means to me.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
beach
♀ Member
Member # 7533
Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lilliolly -

what i don't understand is if my H and his OW think that much of each other then why are they not living together?? Why are they both out like single teenagers drinking all the time and distancing themselves??

Because they only wanted each other part time just for fun part and not wanting any other domestic obligation. They are running away from the reality (adult responsibility), so that they can keep their fantasy alive.

and distancing themselves??
When the addictive relationship becomes toxic, they isolate themselves from the rest of world and try to live in the fantasy land.

ETA - I posted this titled "addictive relationship"
**************************
Addictive relationships have you doing things you would not 'normally' do.

*Like sitting and waiting for a long time for a phone call and then getting moody when it doesn't happen.

*Like keeping your schedule open for "what if" someone is available; putting you life 'on hold' for someone else.

*Like doing things you wouldn't do except that it's for/about "that" person.

*Like being cranky and mean to other people in your life because you are not happy with the way the addictive R is going.

*Like obsessing in your mind and compulsive behavior to be with the person.

*Like forgetting about 'everything' else in your life when in the presence of the person. This is where reality meets fantasy. You are so myopic (near sighted) you don't see the rest of the world around you. You create a reality to escape to and push away the rest of the world - reality.

*You feel love, and especially passion, but you are not loving to the rest of the world. Your love is coveted for the one person.

*The difference between an addictive relationship and a healthy relationship is how it affects your OTHER relationships; especially the one with yourself!

Rather than thinking of it as real vs addictive think of it as healthy vs addictive. What is a healthy relationship? Fantasy is just part of addictive relationships. A healthy relationship doesn't need fantasy... it's just... healthy!

*************************

[This message edited by beach at 8:52 AM, July 9th (Wednesday)]


If you don't find peace with yourself, you cannot find anywhere else.
Appreciate and cherish what I have.

Posts: 8680 | Registered: Jul 2005 | From: midwest
forgivingone
♀ Member
Member # 13420
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was discussing some of this with my H the other night...

He said he felt so bad about himself, that is the issue that led him to have the A, and now he feels even worse about himself. Low self esteem, no self respect.

Isn't that the ultimate Catch- 22,??

He said he didn't have the foresight to see the outcome, to see the devastation of his actions.

My question is, how could you not see that? How could you not foresee the magnitude of what was happening, and how it would impact your life?

Thanks for answering.


Married 21 yrs.
DDay 6-5-06


In a minute there is time for decisions and revisions which a minute will reverse. T.S. Eliot

All that I am, or hope to be, I owe to my angel mother. Abraham Lincoln


Posts: 850 | Registered: Jan 2007 | From: florida
Ingrid
♀ Member
Member # 20126
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dear Listening Closely:

Thank you so much for responding to my questions.! Here's what you said: Was I terribly wrong even expecting him to phone the stripper to call it off right then and there in front of me?

I would have been shocked if it happened. The problem you are facing is that by contact remaining between him and the OW, there is no opportunity for him to clear his view of the world. He is very foggy because the environment of separation is allowing him to basically continue the A and gives him a false feeling of it being ok because "he's not really married if he's separated".

Am I being completely fooled here? Do think he's lying through his teeth?

Probably. But the bigger question is does it matter whether sex is involved or not. Inappropriate relationships are inappropriate whether physical contact exists or not. My A was an online EA, yet it was just as damaging as any other A here. If I were to continue to have conversations with xMOW, I would never break the cycle.

What's the best course of action to take to let him become repentent and WANT to come back to his family and me? What can I do? Total no contact??? Just letting him have a taste of his stripper completely alone in the world without us???

The reality is you can make anyone wants something. They have to want it on their own. What you can do is to give him the same gift my BW gave me. Don't let him have it both ways. Demand that he's either in or he's out. Either he is 100% dedicated to working on R with you, or you agree to D and move on with your lives separately. Scary? It sure is. But it is the only way to eliminate the behavior he is showing now, which is leaving him happy and everyone else around him miserable.

Somebody tell me, what should I do?

IMHO, the way to resolve this is to force him to commit in one direction or another. You cannot force the direction you want (which is what you tried to do when you called the OW). You can only force him to make a decision instead of floating around feeling free to do what pleases him at the moment.

He needs to be forced to make a choice. If it's you, he is required to immediately go NC with OW (including an NC letter) and show you full transparency. If it's not you, then you need to 180 him and possibly file D papers to show him you are serious about these choices.!!!

When he returned home where he's living now (12 step sober living home) --I noticed he called the stripper twice before 11:00 p.m. My heart sunk. I felt glad I "kicked him out", then I wrote him an e-mail, saying I'm sure they got a good laugh out of my phoning her last night. But that I'm 100% serious, and this is not a joking matter, he either obtains help in SA, and drops the stripper immediately, or I'm filing to divorce. I told him I never want to see him again.(the 180) and to merely send me grocery money in the mail. I told him he wants to see other women? then he can have her.

Please tell me if this was an OK thing to say. I think it got the message across. No I'm really giving him space and doing a total 180.

How long should I wait do you think? and if I don't see any turnaround, then I should make a serious decision?



Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: L.A. CA
Ingrid
♀ Member
Member # 20126
Default  Posted: 9:14 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He needs to be forced to make a choice. If it's you, he is required to immediately go NC with OW (including an NC letter) and show you full transparency. If it's not you, then you need to 180 him and possibly file D papers to show him you are serious about these choices.!!!

HOW LONG SHOULD I GIVE HIM TO MAKE THIS CHOICE? He's been "seeing" this other woman stripper for 3 months now, we've been separated for 4 weeks this Sat.

PLEASE HELP.


Posts: 232 | Registered: Jul 2008 | From: L.A. CA
grappling
New Member
Member # 18813
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WH and I have separated, and he is going to marry the OW. He can't stay away from her. How does this happen? I just don't understand. Thanks for any insight.

Posts: 7 | Registered: Mar 2008
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ingrid -

Please tell me if this was an OK thing to say. I think it got the message across. No I'm really giving him space and doing a total 180.

It seems completely appropriate given your circumstances. The key will be how you follow up. If he chooses the OW, you need to be prepared to follow through on the D filing.

How long should I wait do you think? and if I don't see any turnaround, then I should make a serious decision?

The wait is up to you. But I would say if there is no immediate change in his actions based on what you stated, it's probably time to show what you need to do to heal yourself. Filing for D is about as strong a shock to the system as anyone could encounter. If that doesn't shake him out of his fog for OW, then I doubt anything will.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
SoSleepless
♀ Member
Member # 19922
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he seems remorseful. he does but only ever when i bring anything up.

why cant he be looking at me one day and just appologise out of the blue so i actually feel like its coming from and isnt being prodded out of him

why cant he ever initiate any conversations, or strike up one when he can see how low im feeling.

i still feel like i am the one doing all the work and thats not how its meant to go


Two half people only make one whole one and it takes two whole people to make a relationship work

going to church doesnt make you a christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car


Posts: 114 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: UK
alone_in_georgia
♀ Member
Member # 19428
Default  Posted: 10:12 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LC and beach,

Thanks so much! In particular, this line struck home,

Help him understand that he resets his "personal integrity" counter every morning. Today is a new day he has a choice to do the right thing with, regardless of past actions.

Again, I really appreciate the insight; it helps a great deal!


Me BW 40
Him FWH 45
DS9, DS7, DD4
D-Day: 4-30-08; 2 yr LTA
In R

If you sometimes treat your wife like a mistress, you'll have a happy marriage.
If you sometimes treat your mistress like a wife, soon you won't have a mistress.


Posts: 1714 | Registered: May 2008
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, July 9th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

grappling -

WH and I have separated, and he is going to marry the OW. He can't stay away from her. How does this happen?

Your example is one of the reasons I see what my BW gave me as a gift now (but at thee time of D-Day really struggled with). I asked for S and she refused. She insisted I was all in or all out. I tried to justify a Trial Separation as time to sort things out. The reality is an S buys the WS time where they can become less accountable (Hey, I was S so I was free to see who I wanted) and will keep their foggy vision (because OP is still dominant in their lives).

It may be that things could have played out this way anyway. But IMHO, S is an enabler for a WS to remain attached to their OP. Others may have a different experience - I'm just glad my BW never gave me the chance to make this kind of mistake.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 23 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4454 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
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