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User Topic: Long Term Affairs XI I
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 3:26 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And that my H had to have been a very very damaged man to have done that.

word LH. And they still are damaged. Before, during and after and now after the after more damage is heaped on them.

No wonder my H has retreated into his shell and/or loaded the rifles. No wonder H's flip out at their kids... the kids don't have any power over them, they're safe targets. Little do these guys realize that their children CAN walk away.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 3:37 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey all, I need to catch up...I made it through the antiversay weekend. Not a good time. I just exercised my butt off trying to keep from dropping down the rabbit hole. (exercise is my AD).

I have actually been really busy with work...flat out. I hadn't planned on it as this is typically not a busy time and I have the kids home since they haven't started school. Sooooo, life is hectic. I am out tonight again so will try to catch up tomorrow.

Thank you all for the support to make it through the first antiversary.

((((((tribe))))))


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So if he loved me so much, why’d he feel the need to fuck another woman? Or ask her to marry him? Or tell her he’d waited twenty five fucking years for her? Or count the days they had been back together? Or “live as man and wife” for a week? Or pursue her relentlessly, even when she tried (not very hard) to end it? Or write all that angst ridden poetry about her? He never stopped loving me. What utter tosh.

UKG - When I read these questions that torment you, I wonder what it is your H or even your MC could say to you to help you get past them. Where I struggle because my H swears to me her never loved the OW and I wonder why I meant so little that he could have done this with someone he basically used for sex, I'm assuming your difficulty is in thinking that possibly he was in love with the OW.
We all talk about the fantasy world they were living in, it wasn't reality. It never would have lasted if given the test of a real relationship, but that doesn't take the sting and the pain away, does it?
I don't know which is worse or if it even matters. All I know is that their years of putting us last, of never considering our pain and our loneliness, and their utter self-indulgence at our expense is a tremendous burden to bear.
I am glad you are going to C'ing tomorrow night. I hope the C is able to help your H see how he is still somewhere outside his own reality. I hope it's ok to say this but I get the image of him as a man who stands on the outside of his life looking in and not always with eyes that truly see. His writing is so filled with phrases that make me wonder how deeply he even feels or "hears" what he is saying. Again, I hope it is ok, but this particular phrase really had me shaking my head.
It never stopped me from being with her but it stopped me from giving of myself to that point when you no longer counted. I never stopped loving you. I just don't see how he can't see how these two sentences do not even belong on the same page let alone the same paragraph.
I wonder if that is what is keeping you blocked right now - this feeling that he is still somewhere inside a fantasy and you are now the focus. Please let me know if I am off base here and I will apologize a thousand times over.
LH - you could never offend me - thank you for your kind words.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 4:13 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think I will go to my deathbed trying to figure out how my H could have ever done this to me and to us.

Esp as he is still claiming to have loved me. Errr, I don’t think so. You are not offending anyone LostH. We all have this going on in our heads. And , to one degree or another, they were all damaged. I just wish they could have foreseen what was going to happen.

And after a rather tortuous MC, I say goodnight.
Love this tribe xxxx


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

thinking that possibly he was in love with the OW.

He was. And that is the obelisk I have to find a way around. He won’t admit it, but he was. He keeps giving me crap about what she wanted to hear, but he was in love with her and I am getting to the point where I think that is a reason for me to leave the marriage.
"but it stopped me from giving of myself to that point when you no longer counted." I think that works like a double negative. IOW, I did count.

Now I am shattered beyond reason. Mangled too many times. See y’all tomorrow.

And I love you all.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And after a rather tortuous MC, I say goodnight.

Hugs to you UKG - I wish there were words to offer that would ease your pain.
((((((UKG))))))
ETA - I see how I misread that line. I'm so sorry for this mistake. I couldn't imagine him saying such a thing. You do count - we all do, even if our stupid ass H's took a long time in acknowledging that fact.

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 4:59 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 8:34 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It occurrs to me that I had a head start on understanding my H that you all didn't have.

I spent the first 15 years of my working life as a reporter and I interviewed all kinds of people -- including some pretty vicious criminals. A few of those interviews were indepth talks with soceopaths -- rapists, murderers, child molesters, serial con artists/thieves.

Intellectually, I had always known that there were people in the world who simply did not think the way that I did. They held none of the same values or standards for behavior. Folks who didn't believe in the golden rule, or honor or integrity, who considered those concepts absurd. They might have looked like you or me, but they were not. It was shocking to me to talk to them and hear what they truly believed about the world and their place in it.

Even though I had seen those kinds of people up close, it was still shocking to know that my husband was one of them. Not that he was a soceopath per se, and he has certainly never been violent -- in fact quite the opposite he is a healer. But he only paid lip service to values like integrity, honor, honesty, faithfulness. He was a rogue -- out for himself, outside the rulles that applied to the rest of society. If it was convenient for him, he protected me. If my interests and his conflicted, his won out. Always.

As I think about it now, the group of guys that he hung out with at that time was a lot like him. Some of them were even misogynsts, I believe. They were fun, charming and interesting men, but not a one of them was to be trusted.

I think there are many more people out there like this than we know, and my bet is that most of our WS here were like that. They paid lip service to the values that were supposed to be mutually shared, but in reality they were out for themselves.

That's why they can mistake a certain fondess that they had for us for love. That's why they can tell themselves that they still "loved" us while they were fucking someone else for years. It's patent horseshit from people who haven't the faintest idea what love really is.

And that is my vent for the night.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 8:38 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's patent horseshit from people who haven't the faintest idea what love really is.


How much of this is because they don't know how/can't love themselves?


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Whatnow, I haven't had the chance to welcome you here, but I do so with the obvious caveat that I hate the fact that any of us have to be here.

I don't think my husband had the faintest idea of how to love anything or anyone. He never learned it as a child, and didn't learn it until well into middle age. But I do think he recognized it when he saw it in me. And that is why he stayed married. Not because of what he felt/was willing to do for me, but because of what I felt and was willing to do for him.

Sorry for the typos.

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 8:48 PM, August 19th (Tuesday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 9:09 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's patent horseshit from people who haven't the faintest idea what love really is.

It's always been my contention that my H "loved" me because I loved him. The moment his vision of that changed, I no longer loved him and therefore was of no use to him any longer. The minute the kids came first or my work came first (on a particular day) he no longer felt loved, appreciated. He had no separate self from what he saw reflected back from me. Obviously he couldn't take my lack of attention for long. Sometimes only minutes. Patience has never been a virtue of his.

And BT, in one way you're right. Although I didn't live a charmed life. I was almost raped at 15. I was sexually assaulted at work. My father cheated on my mother and left, moved right into HER family and left us behind. A "friend" of our stole our life savings in a bad business deal and snorted it up his nose. I knew they were out there, but I chose to believe in the humanity of man. I chose to look for goodness and not evil. I gave EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt. I kind of figured no one had any reason to hurt me, I hurt no one. I was a good wife, good mother, good worker, good friend, sister and daughter. I never realized that I was the perfect target for evil because I thought that way.

My H knew he should be loving me. And I'm sure he convinced himself that he still did. And you know I've been thinking deeply lately (again). If I were to leave him, maybe date, even sleep with other men, maybe even fall in love again... I'd still love him. I could leave him, break his heart, take his money, marry again and still love him. Even when I hated him, I still loved him.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but because of what I felt and was willing to do for him

I have thought of this aspect in relation to the A and what I have proven/hope to prove to WH as a result of wanting to R and wanting him to become a better person. I don't want to hold that against him....but hope he will grow a greater appreciation and learn what true love is....and also compare that to "love" with the OW.

Thanks for the welcome. ya, I do not want to be here.....but, here I am. Still shocked that I am here....I still sometimes think, OMG...this really happened? And I was oblivious to it all?


((HUGS)) UKGirl-

I have a horrible habit of skimming everything I read...but remember conversation about frequency of sex during the A.
My WH was still very interested in sex with me throughout....even though he was usually getting it twice/week from OW. He says he felt at the time, one thought during the A was "at least I don't have to bother BW as much for sex anymore"...since he always wanted it more than me. The same struggle went on during the A with me feeling like I don't get enough attention and he not getting enough sex- that vicious cycle. I was angry when first found out about the A because I had so much time of guilt about the frequency of sex throughout the A and that didn't matter either. WH has also said that sex with OW was somewhat withheld....so he still desired a more emotional connected kinda sex...interestingly enough it was often not very passionate at all with us during the A.

Okay...I'm rambling now.


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
Whatnow28
♀ Member
Member # 19345
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I chose to look for goodness and not evil. I gave EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt. I kind of figured no one had any reason to hurt me, I hurt no one. I was a good wife, good mother, good worker, good friend, sister and daughter. I never realized that I was the perfect target for evil because I thought that way.

Wow, that's me too! I never suspected OW....even as she was becoming WH's great friend and then my "great friend" I never really suspected...I believed the "she's a good person" speel that I heard from WH.


ME: BW, 30 H: WH, 30 2 little boys

D-day 3/4/08 Whole "truth" from OW 3/12/08
Ow#1, 6 months PA
Ow#2, 2 years PA & EA

"It takes 3 seconds to say "I love you", 3 hours to explain it, & a lifetime to prove it".


Posts: 517 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: NE Coast
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 9:24 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello everyone and welcome Whatnow..

I think there are many more people out there like this than we know, and my bet is that most of our WS here were like that. They paid lip service to the values that were supposed to be mutually shared, but in reality they were out for themselves.

sigh, more true then i would wish


I don't think my husband had the faintest idea of how to love anything or anyone. He never learned it as a child, and didn't learn it until well into middle age. But I do think he recognized it when he saw it in me. And that is why he stayed married. Not because of what he felt/was willing to do for me, but because of what I felt and was willing to do for him.

again, you spoke my thoughts BT.
God, i think they are all
the same..this IS my H.


I never realized that I was the perfect target for evil because I thought that way.

Weepy, it seems WE are all alike too


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 9:37 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I actually have to amend my prior statement because I don't think I had a very clear idea of what love was either.

If my H put himself and his own self interest above everyone, inlcuding me, I put everyone in front of me. To the point where I didn't evern really matter to myself. That is not love, I know now, but a kind of slavery and one that causes an enormous amount of resentment in a person.

But still, even though I didn't get it completely right, I was a whole lot closer than he was. Or at least a whole lot less damaging to others.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:42 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know that I don't post much anymore, but I do read when I get some time.

Odd. I have been somewhat down for a couple of days on just the issue you have been discussing today. "How could he have still loved me and kept shagging her for all those years."

I've been struggling with this for a couple of days.

My thoughts. He didn't love me. He could not have loved me and done that. I think that "now" he loves me. But at one hell of a cost to me. It took him coming within a hair of losing me for him to finally realise what love is. But on the flip side. I loved him before Dday. But I realise now that I stay b/c it's the easier choice for me. I don't want to upset my life with D. I want the boat to keep rocking as smoothly as possible. I don't call that love. So I guess we have traded places now.

He gets upset b/c at times I can't bring myself to say ILY. But if I'm not feeling it, I'm not going to say it. I know that it hurts him. But he doesn't know what hurt is, b/c he hasn't been the BS of an LTA.

I know I sound a little down, but really I'm o.k. Just had to get on and have my say on today's "topic".

Sometimes I wonder if I will ever have true joy again. I get to feel it on and off. But will I ever have it everyday again????


FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
mindisgone
♀ Member
Member # 17772
Default  Posted: 9:51 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But still, even though I didn't get it completely right, I was a whole lot closer than he was. Or at least a whole lot less damaging to others.

Again, you,ve been reading my mind. And it's all so sad.


Sometimes I wonder if I will ever have true joy again. I get to feel it on and off. But will I ever have it everyday again????

I hear ya FSA.


too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart..

Posts: 678 | Registered: Jan 2008
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

H and I had a conversation this weekend about some of this.

He told me that he has always loved me. He told me that if he had known the depth of pain that he was causing that he would not have done it.
I don't believe that. My answer to him was that EVERYBODY knows that A's cause pain to the other person. THAT'S why they don't do it, along with committment. Guess he's just still trying to bs his way through this.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 10:06 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

He gets upset b/c at times I can't bring myself to say ILY. But if I'm not feeling it, I'm not going to say it. I know that it hurts him

Good to see you again FSA.

Do you really not answer him? My H gets so desperate in hs pleas I will usually give in and give him what he wants to hear. Why, I'll never know, he knows I still struggle with that. He'll text me over and over "do you?"

One one level I do love him but it's based in compassion nad pity, not because I love the man any more.

SO maybe I'm with you...sides have flipped. I don't know the meaning of true love any more.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 10:16 PM, August 19th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H gets so desperate in hs pleas I will usually give in and give him what he wants to hear
Yes I'm guilty of the same thing at times. But to be honest, totally honest, no I do not love him like I used to. He killed that. That's something else that I tried to make him understand this last weekend. He thinks all can be merry and beautiful for the rest of our lives. He can't seem to understand me when I tell him that we may make it through this and that we may be able to stay together, but that never ever will we have the happy M that we could have had. It can never be that now. KWIM. He can't agree to that.

He has taken to try and make me love him with material things. With his new job he is making much better money. I can now be a SAHM which I have wanted for quite some time. I have been able to have some of the things that I have done without for our entire married life. He thinks that that should be enough to make me happy.

Why can't he see that for 20 years while we were virtually broke after bill payments, that I was fine. I loved him then but that was b/c I was not aware of the true man that I was married to. Since Dday, I can now see this different man, one that I would never have married.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 1:23 AM, August 20th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning all.

My H can be brutally honest (when it suits him)and he told flat out that he never loved me. At all. He said he liked the way I made him feel, the way I loved him and cared for him. But love...not really.

With re. to the OW, he said he definetly did not love OW#1 (which ties in to what my IC has been saying that their relationship had been a sadistic sick one). However, he did fall in love with OW#2, and when she had sex with him, he thought she loved him too.He even contemplated marrying her |(but I guess she being the more experienced WS, put an and to that thought).

Which then raises all sorts of ugly questions like what if she said yes; what if I had not insisted on coming to the UK; when did he fall OUT of love, etc.

Like BT, I had a limited notion of love myself. I gave, but never asked much for myself, or rather, asked quietly but didnt expect much in return. Which tied in perfectly with my H's notion of love, which was to take, and ONLY give if it was convenient and agreeable for him.

He has told me that I love him way more than he could ever love me, that he just doesnt think he is capable of loving me like that. Not through any limitation of mine, but of his.

Like FSA's H, he is trying to love me now through material goods and through acts of affection (I hesitate to say love cos its sometimes quite contrived)like taking over with the kids, or advising me on clothes (I have terrible dress sense).

Like I said yesterday, when I think of all those years that I spent overloving, whilst he was trying to screw OW, I get really angry and then sad. If he had been a fairly good H and F, maybe just maybe it would make this easier for me...but he wasnt. He was a horrible person who ground me down bit by bit. Which then begs the question,"Why did I stay?"

And thats where my notion of love needs a great shake. I didnt cause hurt to other people, but I did to myself.

To move from this, my challenge is rethink my notion of love, and accept, not just intellectually, but with all my heart as well, that I can not truly love anyone UNTIL I love myself.

FSA, like you "convenience" plays a huge part in my decision to stay, as well as my 3 kiddos. I am very aware of the lifestyle we will have if H and I D. I am also aware that until I face and conquer my demons, it would not be possible to be in a relationship with anyone.

I hope that as H and I tackle our own demons, that we will come out on the other side, closer and able to love each other with that quiet stable enduring love that I crave (ok, and I will keep the great sex as well! ).

He is still so depressed. Feels tired and drained and doesnt know how to carry on further. He feels worn out. Says he cant take anymore. I hear this on a daily basis now, and I dont know what to do. He refuses anti-deps, his IC is on holiday; he doesnt want to take some time off work; he basically doesnt want to do anything to help himself. So I smile and hug and reassure, and tell him that I can carry him for awhile.

***
((((Ukg))))

Hi FSA!


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

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