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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs XI I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:04 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning all.

LH - I'm waiting!

Sorry about that Fnf. I had the folks, my sister's family, and her inlaws over for dinner last night, and I was absolutely stressed.

I wish I was one of the those people who could just relax and enjoy the company. I am not. I need everything done well.By a certain time, so there are no last minute panics etc. But I get so stressed, and I was already so tired, that I dont even remember tasting anything.

But everyone had a good time, so thats ok.

***
Back to your question.

was wondering if we could have "a show of hands" for those whose H's confessed and those who had to get caught to stop

With re. to OW#2 (whose dday was first), he kinda confessed and was caught.

I confronted him about his cell, he told a few whoppers never epxecting me to follow up (and to be honest, I never would have ordinarily, but for some reason that day I did)which led to some other whoppers which led to a few calls to AU to his "friend" from work who said it wasnt her I should be calling, and that I should ask him what the real one's name was.

Then he finally (just before midnight) confessed (kinda cos it was a truth liberally sprinkled with lies).

HE later said that he could have covered his track better that night, but he had just gotten so tired of the lies and the whole tangled web, he just had to get it out. Also, things had cooled off with them somewhat (she was in AU and he was here and she had another FT BF, and he was getting much satisfactionn from the relationship)and he said that they had broken up 2 weeks before.
Then again, he also said that they were on-off again anyway, so they would have got back together...mabe..or maybe she would have been replaced too. Who knows?

Re. OW#1(whose dday came some 6 months after the first one) - now THAT one he got caught...by an email. HE said he had no intentions EVER of confessing.That one he would have taken to the grave.
But the fact that we came across the email the very NEXT day after he swore on all things holy that he had no more lies/secrets, must have been disconcerting to him. HE just never expected it.

I was floored. Totally. Both times.

How I got over it?
I must confess that I have difficulties sometimes with it. Esp with the second dday.

You see, I had put my H on a pedastal prior. I did believe fully in his integrity and honesty. He may have been a lousy H and F, but darn, he was a good honest man.

To fully accept (after dday2)that that man was a fraud...
That he was capable of lying so much, and had in fact been a liar from day 1 of our relationship...
My whole picture of him had to be burned off slowly...I did try even then to keep him on his pedastal.

However, it was only after BT gave me some stern words oneday when I was lying bruised and shellshocked on the floor, after another dose of his visciousness; that I had to snap out of it.

She told me (and you know she articulates this better, so apologies to BT),that I should never ever forget that my H had 2 sides, and that to do so would be very dangerous to me.

And it was a lightbulb moment for me. I had to bring that pedastal down.Or I was going to die.

{This sounds like a long winded answer to your question, but I dont know how else to say it.}

I dont really have a problem now with the way he was found out; I am just grateful that he was, because that got me on the road to finding myself. I can see how and why he would have kept it secret. I dont understand it though, but thats ok.

That man who lied and cheated throughout the M, is not the man sitting across me now. That is mainly the reason why I dont have much of an issue how I found out.

I know though that that man will always be a part of this man, but I have hope that that part diminishes over time. It makes me question him alot, but not as much as I did before. I will never ever have that blind faith again in him, and I will never ever forget BT's words; but that goes for any person I guess.

Which is sad, but in a way, I know that the only person I should trust and count on, is me. Which is why rebuilding me is so important to me now.

Do I wish he had confessed to OW#1...yes.

I had spent the previous 6 months struggling to win him back and be understanding to his dilemma, to be the perfect BS, and then drowning. I almost died. And I would have died never knowing that it wasnt my fault he had the A. And he watched me the whole time, seeing me struggle and then go down.

But I came up again.
He may have called the ambulance, but I (and God) made me come alive again.

HE didnt confess, but the truth came out anyway. And at the end of the day, that is all that mattered.

Wow, I do talk alot, dont I?

FNF, why does it bother you so much (getting caught vs confessing)..apart from the obvious?
What are your (negative??) beliefs about this?
What are you struggling with in particular going forward?

((((((FNF)))))))

Big big hugs my friend.

Btw,Fnf, heard on the radio that Dolly Parton is going to tour the UK soon. Are you a fan? Unfort that is the extent of my C&W music knowledge.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:11 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ukg, 2 things I want to call you up on, my friend.

but I still want to do that canal walk to ďtheirĒ pub and ďtheirĒ bench

WTF for??
You are tormenting yourself. Why, ukg?

You know you are keeping her in the M, by doing these things.

To tell them would make me feel that I had failed somehow.

Aha!
This is something only you can work on. IMHO, I think this is one of your negative beliefs that is keeping you from moving forward.

What do you think, Ukg?

Now put that finger down!


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 5:00 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but he had just gotten so tired of the lies and the whole tangled web, he just had to get it out.

But then we find they have become habitual liars and get the trickle truth and/or, like you, a second DDay. Is it all part and parcel of coming out of the fog? Finally realising that they have jeopardised what they really wanted (which they already had) all along? Tsk. Like the song ďyou donít know what youíve got til itís goneĒ. But bloody late by then.
How I got over it?

("How have" or just "Have" Lost?) I donít think you do, not really. Accept it and find somewhere to put it in the history. But, for me, Iíll never get over it.

You are tormenting yourself. Why, ukg?

I dunno. Iíve been wanting to do it ever since I found out where the pub was. FWH said the only way of getting there was by walking. (Actually dear, thereís a road and a bloody great car park. But you only had eyes for her, so I guess you didnít notice.) I would think itís only a ten or 15min walk from the lane. I could meet my friend (whose DDís bf is staying with us) for lunch Ö.. Now that would be amusing!

[This message edited by UKgirl at 5:01 AM, July 6th (Sunday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 5:11 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

("How have" or just "Have" Lost?) I donít think you do, not really. Accept it and find somewhere to put it in the history

You are probably right, Ukg. Its part of the landscape now. It cant hurt me anymore. I will not let it.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 7:32 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF:

You say your husband had no remorse, felt entitled and would have continued the affair indefinitely had he not been caught.

I can see how that would make for lots of problems for you.

Where is he now? Is he remorseful, and if so, about what? The pain to you? His own lack of integrity? Do you believe he would do such a thing again? Do you see a different man now than he was during the affair or just a man who feels badly that he hurt you?

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Where is he now? Is he remorseful, and if so, about what? The pain to you? His own lack of integrity? Do you believe he would do such a thing again? Do you see a different man now than he was during the affair or just a man who feels badly that he hurt you?

BT - Great questions, and ones that I am always searching the answers to.
I do believe he is remorseful and I do see changes in him. But I also see some of his old, negative behaviors coming back into our relationship and I think this is why I am slipping lately. He is very critical by nature and I think he believes this is all in his past and he's not cheating anymore so why am I making a big deal over his negative behaviors, KWIM?
One thing that he does bring up occasionally that really continues to haunt him is something I said on d-day. I was hysterical crying and begging to understand why and I cried out, "You stole my joy." To this day, he will tell me (with a lot of emotion that is so unlike him) that this is the one thing that snapped him out of his fog ( he doesn't use this term but that's what he implies). I was always so happy and upbeat - the glass was always half full and to see me in tears all the time and needing AD's and wine and having trouble getting out of bed was something he had never seen in me and was very upsetting to him. Poor baby!

Also, because I insisted that he tell our adult children and he saw their pain, I do think he has genuine remorse and gets how wrong his LTA was. But initially, he admitted he couldn't see why he was hurting any of us.
As far as his integrity, when Tim Russert died suddenly and we were watching the news and commentaries on his life, every time the word "integrity" came up it shot through me like a knife. Later, I asked him how that made him feel, that he had not been a man of integrity. He just said that he knew I'd be thinking that way but didn't really answer how he felt about that. He is so out of touch with his own feelings - again, something our C told me he believed to be related to either Asberger's (sp.?)or him being emotionally challenged. That I'd have to learn to "manage" my M.
And yes, I have a lot of problems with his honest answers to me about his feeling entitled, no sense of guilt, and that it only ended because he got caught.
He does admit that he is glad now for it to be over, that it became a habit, that she was getting needy and was putting pressure on him. So I'm guessing he's glad to be rid of that aspect. All in all, I think this will take more time for me to reconcile and maybe it is time for me to go back to C'ing.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF, why does it bother you so much (getting caught vs confessing)..apart from the obvious?
What are your (negative??) beliefs about this?
What are you struggling with in particular going forward?

I think the issue of my H's lack of integrity throughout his life is what I am struggling with lately. You see, he had been married before and cheated on his first wife. I knew this going into the M and stupidly believed he wouldn't cheat on me. I believed in him, trusted him and believed he loved me. I don't know why I was so sure of myself and our R, young and dumb I guess, but I thought his cheating on her was due to their bitter M (as I heard from him and his family and friends - how miserable she was, what an awful person, etc., which now looking back never justified his multiple A's on her) I guess I was so in love I was able to overlook this.
Anyway, once I learned about the LTA (and yes we had multiple d-days because first he admitted to it being an 8 month A, then I learned from his partner that he was lying so when I confronted him he admitted to 3 years and later other evidence pointed to a much longer A and finally he admitted to 8 years. Needless to say, I still live in fear that it was even longer than that.
So, long answer here,
I do not believe my H to be a man of integrity and have not been able to get to the point where I will allow myself to believe he is a changed man and this makes life in our M very difficult for me. I know I need to get to the place where I take down my walls, but when he starts acting up, the walls get reinforced and the cycle of doubt and mistrust revs up again.
I don't see a truly changed man. I see someone doing what is necessary when I am in a negative place but when things are "normal" , he slips right back into his old self. I have tried every time to explain how difficult he is making things for me, he promises to do better and then slips back the very next day.
As far as being a Dolly Parton fan, now I'm not that great a country western fan. She is a little over the top for me. Martina, now she's a different story!
Thanks, LH, for your concern and kindness. I'm working through this and maybe I'm just going through another phase of healing. I sure hope so.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF:

I'm sure others would disagree, but if I didn't believe my husband was a man of integrity, I wouldn't let my walls down. Ever.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't stay in the marriage. If I weighed the pros and cons and staying was what worked best for me overall, I would stay. But I would change my expectations of what marriage would be.

I would probably work to reach a place of detachment from him, where I enjoyed being with him and the perks of having a life companion but did not open my heart and soul to him in any deep way. I guess it would be almost a friends with benefits relationship.

It would make me sad to make that determination and choice, but I value myself enough now not to open myself to people whose integrity I do not believe in. People without integrity aren't safe. Bottom line. And I give those kind of people as few ways to hurt me as possible. If I stayed with a husband whose integrity was in question, I would try never to lose sight of the knowledge that a person without integrity is very likely to make choices that are not in my best interests again.

I would not make this choice if my husband was rude or mean or inconsiderate of me or my needs on a daily basis. That would weigh the scales completely against staying in the marriage. Nor would I do this if I was 40 or even 45. But at 50 or 55 or 60, I very well might. Is it settling for less than I would want? Yes, but if that was the hand I was dealt I would think this might well be the way I would deal with it. To me, it just seems realistic.

I would probably hope for more and in a subtle way try to open his eyes to a different way of life, but I would not open myself up to a man who had betrayed me in the past unless I was convinced he had changed in a very deep way.

If this is the position you feel you are in, I am sorry. You are a person of such warmth and kindness and deep caring, you deserve more. But I don't think a life like this has to be a life of mourning. It may not be all that we hoped for, but it can still be a very good life.

BT

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 12:52 PM, July 6th (Sunday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nor would I do this if I was 40 or even 45

I am 36, BT. Wonder what that says about me.

You are a person of such warmth and kindness and deep caring, you deserve more. But I don't think a life like this has to be a life of mourning. It may not be all that we hoped for, but it can still be a very good life.

Well said,BT.
Its almost bittersweet, isnt it? Knowing that this is not exactly what you wanted starting out in the M, but its not half bad, considering.

Fnf, if you could make chanegs going forward, what would you change in the M/H/you?

Do you think if you explain to your H how deeply you are affected by his behaviour, how much you want a better M, how you are also willing to work on it, that he might come on board?

Or do you think if you start making your own changes, that he might just join you?

Or???

((((((FnF))))))

You are such a beautiful soul. His heart must be as blind as his eyes.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost,

I don't think that your choice is the same one. Yes, like my husband and FNF's, your husband lived a life without integrity for a long time. But your husband is trying to be a different man now. He may not be there yet, but you believe that he wants to be a man of integrity. He is making changes, and will make more in time. What you're doing is giving him time.

My husband put a lot of work into changing who he was. And it took a long time. And he still screws up, as do we all. But I believe that he is a different man than he was because he deeply wanted to be, and that he is truly ashamed of what he did and who he was.

If I understand FNF right, she is saying her husband does not really value integrity enough to make those changes. He thinks what he's done is bad because it hurt her and their children, but not because it is intrinsically wrong. I'd guess he would feel that if he hadn't been found out, that no one would have been hurt.

I've certainly known a lot of people like that. Politicians who don't keep their word; military men/women who think it's OK to cheat because they are gone from home for so long and live in such danger; men who cheat repeatedly because they believe that is a right of being men and they "deserve it" for working hard to support their families; women who sleep their way to the top; people who cheat in business. And lots of more subtle versions, too. They are people who believe themselves outside the rules, even the ones like wedding vows that they make for themselves.

Honesty and integrity is not a universally held value, although almost everyone pays lip service to it. There are many, many people who do not believe cheating and lying are that bad, unless they are caught. For some people lies are an acceptable tactic to get what they want.

BT

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 2:55 PM, July 6th (Sunday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT,
What amazing words about integrity and your perspective. I'm in the same camp. If my H hadn't truly made the efforts toward true change I had already resigned myself to a more detached type relationship with him- I was pleasantly surprised that he did change.

Some evidence of his changes have come about recently.

Tribe, part of what's been on my plate lately is this: we won a lawsuit against a corporation that had a pattern of treating employees horribly. It's up on appeal. Well, now of course they've offered to settle with us. Hah...But anyway, they've also put my H in a position where their settlement would obliterate any protections for the next employee who gets screwed over. So, it's a choice between financial security NOW without thinking of anyone but ourselves OR waiting it out the next several months before we see any money. I have to say, I was very, very tempted to take the money and run (even though its less money than we are entitled) b/c we are strapped financially. My H (who used to be so incredibly self-centered) feels strongly about protecting the next "little guy" that comes along at that company... and has faith that we will make it through the next several months of dark financial times. I dare say I am proud of my H for being a man of integrity now. He has been put to the test and stands his ground, where before I think he only thought of himself/our family. Not that thinking of the family first is a bad thing- it's just he sees the big picture now. But this is what has been weighing on my mind.

Please send us good thoughts that we make the "right" choice.

Hugs,
HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, July 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So interesting to hear how dday came about for you all. Seems there are some similarities to all their behavior.

I have suspected an affair for years. I remember 5 years ago when he came home with a hickey on his neck. His mom was there, I made one statement, he denied and I let it go. I let a lot of things go. We even went to marriage counseling through it all and I almost brought up that I suspected he had had an affair, but she graduated us before that could happen. Thought we were a great couple who loved each other.

So why on October 27th, 2007 I suddenly allowed the thought to truly form in my head I don't know. I had written about it in past journals and thought briefly of it, but never truly allowed the actual cold hard possibility of it sink in.

When I did it too very little work. Check a cell phone, look up the number. I even knew her first name (or part of it) b/c it could be confused as a boy's name and I had seen it in his phone years ago and even asked about it. Questioned if that was someone he was seeing.

So thought long and hard and decided to confront. His mom was over sleeping but I couldn't wait. So when he came home from work via her house on Oct 28th I confronted. He said it felt like cold water being poured on him. I just said I know about her. He said who and I said her name. He sat down.

He says in some ways he was relieved. Says he had wanted to tell me that summer and hadn't. Had tried to end it several times but then it just started back up. Who knows the truth now.

Have I gotten over it? Not a chance in hell. But I have somehow forgiven and am trying my hardest. I guess it comes down to the fact that i would be sadder with him out of my life than I am with him in it. Neither is the choice of my dreams but this is where I am. I have to believe there is some reason for it all that I may never know.

Tat said, he is trying very, very hard and has not really made an major slip ups in that time (a few things that felt major at the time but looking back were really old things, no new betrayals). He is kind and loves me and I suppose that is his saving grace.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 6:34 AM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HB,

Congratulations on the lawsuit!! It's always nice to see individuals prevail against the big guys who think they can treat people any which way they want to. Good for you all for fighting and best luck in your coming decision. I know you'll make the right decision.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Fnf, if you could make chanegs going forward, what would you change in the M/H/you?

The odd thing is that he has made changes in the M, changes that I have wanted all of our married life. I wanted us to spend more time together, I wanted a sex life with my H, I wanted family time with our children, I wanted us to share in each other's interests. Now, my H is giving me these things so why do I feel unsatisfied? He gets so frustrated because he is giving me, our M and our family the time I've wanted for so long. We have sex frequently and spend time cuddling, talking and holding each other. Yet something seems to be missing for me and the only thing I can think of is that I am still not convinced that my H has changed in a deeper, more personal way.
So that leads me to the question I wanted to ask you, BT and HB.
When you say your H's have changed "in a very deep way", can you give me examples of this? I sometimes wondering if I'm not recognizing those changes in my H, or not giving him credit for making changes. How did you know that these changes were real and lasting?
Finally, I have changed in negative ways. I am tougher, angrier, less forgiving and more suspicious of every thing he tells me. So, in terms of how I want to change, I have lots of work to do. But I am afraid to do the work for fear of getting hurt again. Maybe though, as you suggested, LH, if I make the changes in my attitude, I just might start to see some positive changes in the way we communicate with each other now.
HB, I wish I had wise advice to give you re: your current situation. I just wanted to make one comment on this statement:
My H (who used to be so incredibly self-centered) feels strongly about protecting the next "little guy" that comes along at that company... and has faith that we will make it through the next several months of dark financial times. I dare say I am proud of my H for being a man of integrity now.

When I read this statement I have to say honestly that it sounded to me like you had both made your decision.
Your H is willing to suffer through a few dark months of financial strain for the sake of his integrity. That is truly amazing. You are acknowledging his new found integrity and have genuine pride in him for his commitment to change.
I cannot imagine how difficult this must be especially if there are no guarantees for a satisfactory outcome following appeals. Is there any chance you could lose or that they could tie this up in appeals indefinitely?
Is there any chance your H could re-negotiate the terms of his offer in a way that would not leave the next guy unprotected?
We will keep you and your H in our thoughts and support you as best as we can as you struggle with this important decision.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 12:11 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

just a man who feels badly that he hurt you

I think this is another of my problems. He did not want me to find out. He thought his world would fall apart, that he would lose me, the house, the boys, half his income, half his pension pot, maybe his job, other peopleís high opinion of him, status, his parents view of him. If he did realise his love for me was greater than his love for her and that his decision was to stay with me, the two best case scenarios were
1) for her to finish the affair and go completely NC for evermore.
2) for things to quietly carry on seeing each other every couple of months or so, texting or phoning just once a week and without either of them wanting to leave their respective marriages.
And that hurts.

I do wonder sometimes if we should have told the boys, but I would not want to detract any of them from their desired paths in life. Iím sure DS1 and DS2 would not be in Australia.

I think the issue of my H's lack of integrity throughout his life is what I am struggling with lately.

I found it strange that my H could spout on about integrity in business, I mean as it is ESSENTIAL. It was only a couple of weeks ago, he was talking about a company he was being interviewed for and he said that business was all about honesty, integrity and respect. I thought riiiighht, okaaay. And then he said it applied in personal life too. Yep. He really did say that. I stared at him and he KNEW what I was thinking (tosser) and he said ďI know that nowĒ. Shame he didnít when it mattered. Is he a man of ďintegrityĒ now? Well, all I can say is that heís trying. But until he opens up on the questions I have left for him, then I would have to say no. And that is probably why I remain a step removed.

HB,
and yet my H has done the same type of thing. And he has backed the employee rather than the company at tribunal. To be seen as a man of integrity in the business was vital. The good guy. The man who listens to the guy working machinery as well as the CEO. The man who has never left a company (well, only one) on bad terms and still gets calls from old work buddies. I hope it all works out the way that it should. Ie that your H still gets the payoff and other employees and prospective employees get the protection that was denied your H.

There are many, many people who do not believe cheating and lying are that bad, unless they are caught.

Which brings us to core values and our boundaries of right and wrong. I think I am going to find it difficult to be as open and honest as I was before DDay. He hid this part of his life and lied to me for so long that I think I have earned to right to tell him to piss off when he insists on wanting to know where I am going, who I am seeing and what time Iíll be back. Those were essential points for the boys going out because I cared and worried about them. He couldnít have given a fuck about me for five years and lied about where he was, so why should I tell him? His core values were seriously skewed. One rule for him, another for us.

Well, Iíd better get off now. I have spent quite a bit of time on the Friendsreunited website (yes, the one where FWH found OW) with some correspondence that has come winging my way. I think itís time to change my profile there. Maybe. Now that Iím less resentful.

[This message edited by UKgirl at 12:13 PM, July 7th (Monday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3327 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF:

I should start by saying that my husband had me hoodwinked for a long time. Throughout our life together, he had always played the role of a gentle, honest, good man. He cultivated that image assiduously. He portrayed himself as the one good guy among all the liars/cheats in his workplace. Hah! H, however, was a very accomplished liar and manipulator and I wanted him so badly to be that good kind man that he protrayed himself that I ignored anything that didn't fit in with that image. Looking back on it now, I see that there were lots of indicators that he wasn't what he pretended to be. But I never followed up on any of them.

After he confessed to the affair, I could no longer ignore his real nature. The mask was off, and I understood that he wasn't who I had believed him to be.
In our discussions after he confessed to the affair, he for the first time was honest about his view of the world and how it works. It was not pretty. Basically, every man for himself, do whatever you need to do to get what you want. His real attitudes/beliefs were almost 180 degrees from the attitudes he claimed to have and they were 180 degrees different from mine.

For instance, he claimed to abhor lying and anger and meanness, and yet when I thought back over his behavior during the affair and afterward I saw him lie with alacrity. I also learned that he was a very angry man, he just expressed it passive-aggressively and I hadn't recognized it. And I realized when I learned about many of the things he had done during the affair that he could and had been mean as hell.

I asked him why he had conjured up this image for himself of kindness and goodness and he said that was the man he wanted to be, but that he didn't believe he could be. Or anyone else could be for that matter. He was so cynical about the world that he didn't believe goodness and decency were really possible.

But he said if I stuck around he would try to become that man that he had pretended to be. That's what he asked for the time to try to become.

To do that, though, his IC told him he had to be honest about his current attitudes. And he was. It was an eye opening experience finding out how he really viewed the world, how much resentment he held for people and how his first reaction was often to protect his own comfort no matter the cost to others.

Those attitudes slowly began to change over the months of IC and MC and 12-step work that he did. He worked hard, and his attitudes and outlook slowly began to change.

Now I hear him talk with our sons and he is adamant about advising them to live with honor. Even the little "white lies" that people tell to spare others feelings are not something he allows.

He has done some big things -- like been the speaker at a 12-step meeting where he talked about the toxicity of secrets and told the participants that they would never be free until they had exposed every last secret to the people affected. But it is the little things that convince me -- going back into the store to pay for an item the checker missed, or not calling in sick, or not dodging the hard discussions with me or the kids.

We had a call this weekend from a good friend from the affair years that we haven't heard from in a long while. H said he dreads calling him back, because H must admit to this guy what a bastard he was and apologize for involving him in the affair.

To me, that is pretty good evidence of a change. He could be fooling me again, but I don't think so. I've always believed in redemption, and I think my husband does now, too. So, I think he'll push on not for me, but for himself.

BT

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 4:14 PM, July 7th (Monday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 6:17 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT - so much of how you described your H pre d-day sounded like my H. This quote especially describes my H to a tee:
Basically, every man for himself, do whatever you need to do to get what you want. His real attitudes/beliefs were . . .180 degrees different from mine.

Notice I took out one part because this didn't fit my H. From early on he told me that his parents taught him this, to get whatever you want however you can get it and don't worry about the other guy. He was literally taught to steal from his employer at a very young age and to bring home the list of items his parents gave him as he left the house. He claims to have a lot of guilt over this because he loved and respected the man he worked for but didn't want to face his parents anger if he came home without their requests. As to sex, his father repeatedly told him to get as much as he could, whenever he could. So from his early teens, these were the lessons his parents taught him. I guess it's no wonder that he became a consummate liar and a cheat.
So, what is the 12 step plan? I know there is one for AA, is this the same or one customized for another set of issues? I haven't heard of this but it surely sounds interesting.
Thank you again BT. You are really helping me work through my latest difficulties and I am so grateful.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 6:53 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF,

My husband had a drinking/drug problem, too, during the years of the affair, so his 12-step fellowship is AA.

Like his cheating, his drinking stopped many years ago. But all the thought patterns of a substance abuser were still very much in place for him. The resentment, the anger, the suspicion, the belief that you needed to cheat the world before it cheated you. Those are all kind of typical alcoholic thought processes. My husband was what they call in AA a dry drunk.

So, after d-day, he went back to AA and worked through the 12 steps in a deep and thoughtful way. It's a spiritual pathway to re-programming your attitudes and worldview, and it was very helpful to my H, along with IC and MC. (Having done a 12-step program myself in Al-Anon, I know that it can be transformative.)

I feel for your H and mine. Their parents really screwed them up badly, just as I'm sure those parents were screwed up badly by the preceding generation. You could take it all the way back to Adam and Eve if you wanted to. But we are the only ones who can change it for ourselves.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 9:39 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT - I sent you a PM. Thank you again for all of your support.
Weepy - hope you had or are having a great mini vacation. Check in when you return and let us know how you're doing.
HurtShirley - where are you? We miss you when you don't drop in.
LH - looks like you took a day off. I hope you're somewhere on a beach soaking up the sun and reading one of your favorite books.
UKgirl - sounds like the two of us are going through the same tough times right now. Thank heavens for everyone here. Hope you're doing better today.
HB- just thinking of you and sending you support as you work through this.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, July 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BT &FNF,

Thanks you guys for the words of encouragement and understanding.

I dare say I am proud of my H for being a man of integrity now.

When I read this statement I have to say honestly that it sounded to me like you had both made your decision.


FNF, this is another prime example of how my H has changed. He had really made *his* decision as to what is important in this whole lawsuit settlement, and pre-dday that would have been it. He really only paid lip-service to my thoughts or feelings if his opinion he "felt" was more "right." We had some serious power struggles in the relationship. NOW the decision had not been made because I was still undecided.

We sent a counteroffer of sorts to the opposing side, but H and I decided that we are ready to face the struggles if it comes to that.

And yes, there is a possibility of losing on appeal- not a huge one, but a small percentage get overturned. IF that happens we lose everything- we've already paid our attorney, so we lose that investment. But, we both feel, along with our attorney, that we have a strong chance. And we are ready to face the tide...... as scary as that may be. The appeals process is a long, long one- we have exhausted our savings and barely struggling along on my income alone- if they don't settle we will not see any money til mid next year at earliest.

But H and I are buckling down, trying to do what is morally right. Man, I sure do understand how it is so much easier just to be selfish and self-centered. I'm trying to remind myself that this being poor business is building my character. You all can kick my sorry butt when I get all pathetic and whiny and scared about money, ok?

Well, I just wanted to check in on everyone. Hope the rest of the tribe is doing OK. FNF, as far as seeing the changes in my H... I agree with BT. It was a lot of things/tests, but truly it was over time. I had always been cynical about people changing- and I surely was about my H. It was sustained periods of time that my H showed remorse. He became plugged back into the family. Still almost 3 years past dday he checks in on me and wants to know what is important. He reinvested in the family. He shifted his priorities- went from being money focused to family focused. He learned to set boundaries with my in-laws (that was a biggie). And all of these things had little "tests" or "opportunities" along the way i.e. real world situations where he was tested and "passed." I also began to feel it in my gut- that he was changing. Intuitively.

Hope this gives you some insight. I know every situation is different. I think you will just *know* when the time is right to acknowledge any serious changes in your H. I began to get inklings and then had to work through my own fears. This was a process and is still ongoing.

Hugs
Heartbroken


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

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