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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N. P.D Thread - Part VI
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 3:40 PM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cerise She is acting like a horse's behind because she has witnessed her father act that way and sees that he gets results atleast some of the time acting like that. I think a good portion of it is learned. Add in the ADHD and whatever else is going on on top of teenaged hormones and you have a walking nightmare. You know I speak from experience here with 2 walking mightmares of my own.

For me it is the constant defiance that drives me insane. Teenagers are selfish and I think that we have to constantly get them to try and see past their minute to minute existance and think about the consequences of the behaviours on themselves and others. Mine are well versed in "for every actions there is an equal and OPPOSITE reaction" So you refuse to do XYZ and you will lose the computer/TV/phone/MP3 etc. Mine have been told by a number of professionals laterly that everything beyond meals (not necessarily one they like), Clothes on their back (not necessarily one they like), a bed to sleep on with blankets is OPTIONAL. Mine do the entitlement thing alot and they are seriously starting to have things removed because it is getting to be too much.

I think a portion of the problem is that she is around her father and sees him using manipulation, lies etc. and getting the results he wants but doesn't realize that these bahviours come at a price and that you alienate everyone around you by acting like this.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have all of the NPD threads saved as PDF files. PM if you need them.

BoB


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yay! Bob to the rescue!! I'm so glad that someone has them. Such a wealth of information there....


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 5:09 PM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've bee divorced for 4 years.

I have trouble being consistant with my DD. I really struggle with it.

The other day she got upset with me and would not go to her room like I told her to. I work from home and was trying to work...she was screaming. She ran to a friend's house, told her she was scared of me, and they called the police. It was a nightmare...I was supposed to be doing work with a quick turnaround and trying to explain to the policeman what was going on. He suggested I file an unruly child petition.

We have been in and out of counseling. I had to fight for my ex to pay for it, and again, he is blaming me for her problems and refusing to pay for it, but he also will not let her live with him. This is so bizarre, because he makes about 4 to 5 times as much money as I do.

They both have their ways of sticking the knife in when they don't get what they want. She lies to me about her father, telling me things that make him sound like a child abuser. I've found I really cannot believe anything she says anymore.

She is like her father in that she will not take responsibility for her actions. She blames others for even the smallest things. It seems automatic. I have seen her use drama, flattery, and anger to manipulate and get her way.

Lately she has been badmouthing her father a lot....I have trouble understanding that, even though he is a jerk. I grew up in an abusive home, but I never badmouthed my mother or my father.

She is just so different than I was. She is gifted, but failing school. She is obsessed with her appearance and cannot stop looking in the mirror. She talks about herself constantly. Most of the time it seems that she will only do things for others if she gets something from it.

Before the divorce I used to do a lot of volunteer work and I included her in most of it. I practiced Sears and Sears attachment parenting hoping that she would grow up with a secure base. I worked hard to do the right things for her, though I realize now that her father emotionally abused and manipulated me and she was a witness to that her entire life.

Things are popping in my head now...

In the first few days after I found out about the affair, I had an asthma attack. I was drooling, I couldn't breathe, couldn't speak, and couldn't get to my inhaler. My XH sat at the table calmly drinking his coffee like nothing was happening. Our DD witnessed that, and I can't help but wonder if that has influenced her lack of empathy.

I feel strong today. I started on a new medication the other day to help with anxiety. Some days I really do not feel very strong and just overwhelmed.


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 2:52 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh numbnuts is going to be so happy... . He has been mucking about paying the CS at the very last minute. In Januray he didn't bother paying it at all. I just got off the phone from the enforcement officer and they are finally going to garnish him for the full amount up to 50% of his pay until it is paid and then have it paid through garnishment after that.

I wish I had his work address. I would love to help them out with that part too but they should be able to find it since it is a big company in the same city as the enforcement office is. Won't he be happy when he barely gets a check.

Mr big spender will have even less $$ for his lavish renos he has been bragging about. Guess thinks are fincially strapped in the honeymoon suite.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
veritas
♀ Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh happy, happy day, lied2! If I hear something that sounds like a wounded animal, I will know that it's your X


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

Posts: 10164 | Registered: Feb 2004
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, February 3rd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm reading a great book "In Sheep's Clothing, Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People." I haven't gotten to the "dealing with" part.

This book says that the number of people with personality disorders is on the rise. It also points out an issue I have had a problem with....for instance I seem to assume that bad behavior is a result of low self esteem, bad childhood, or whatever. I have cut people too much slack with regard to this. It has not occurred that people would really want to act cruel....that they are using their behavior to get what they want.

For instance I have assumed that my DDs problems were due to low self esteem or trauma from the divorce. I have felt sorry for her. I realize now after lied2's post and reading this book that that is probably not the case.


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
landabear
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Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, February 3rd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It also points out an issue I have had a problem with....for instance I seem to assume that bad behavior is a result of low self esteem, bad childhood, or whatever. I have cut people too much slack with regard to this. It has not occurred that people would really want to act cruel....that they are using their behavior to get what they want.

This is the sole reason I stayed with my ex too long - I just "knew" there was a good person behind all that "hurt".

I was wrong - just badness back there.

It's because we are good people. Since we are coming from a "good people" place, we see the rest of the world through our rose-colored glasses.

For instance I have assumed that my DDs problems were due to low self esteem or trauma from the divorce. I have felt sorry for her. I realize now after lied2's post and reading this book that that is probably not the case.

She's acting like that because it's working for her in some way. There is pay off (probably attention) for her in acting that way, and as long as that holds true she will continue to act that way.

Hell, she might *continue* to act that way, just because that's how she is. But it's hard to know, she's still young. My exN was still halfway normal until he was into his 20s, so you might have a case of some other problem (depression, bipolar, etc.) being overlayed with learned behavior from her father.

I don't know if it will help you or not, but check out the LoveFraud blog. One of the commenters/contributors there has a Sociopath son, and the juxtaposition of her love for him along with the way she is able to look at his actions clearly might help you determine how to deal with your daughter. In other words, figure out if she is just ACTING this way, or is this way.

I've followed your story on this and other threads. I think your's is one of those stories that proves kids shouldn't be forced to visit N parents.

ETA: forced by the courts, I should say. I think the idea of "co-parenting" is shoved down the throats of everyone, whether or not that's actually attainable. Add to that the problem of seldom getting a sociopath to act that way in front of anyone but you....and you almost never get a diagnosis for them that will allow you to spare the kids interaction.

[This message edited by landabear at 8:11 AM, February 3rd (Tuesday)]


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 8:24 AM, February 3rd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Co-parenting has been shoved down our throats....

One of my daughter's counselors told me not to talk with my XH and she told him not to talk to me. She said "negotiating with him is like negotiating with a terriorist."

Recently my daughter told me that she wants people to feel sorry for her. Evidently that is a big deal for her. I don't get it. She is also starting to have boyfriends, but I see her only get so close to them and then she pulls away. One of her friends told me she has been lying alot with kids at school. She has become really popular at school and I think that has made things worse. She is about as responsible as the average 5th grader. I wouldn't even let her babysit for anyone.

She talks about herself constantly....constant chatter. She will use tears, hugs, screaming for manipulation. She talks to me in the same condescending way that her father did (does.)

I have cut her, and the other people in my life, way too much slack.


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, February 3rd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cerise you know that I am speaking from my own situation into your because our kids have some very similar behaviours and issues. It is very hard to separate the person from the behaviour.

My struggle is the whole idea that we teach people how to treat us and if we change our actions then they will change their actions. (systems theory) I am just not really sure how to change my behaviour so that it has an impact because what I have been doing seems to have little benefit. I have to half wonder if these children don't act out simply because they are hurting and don't know what else to do. They don't see, or care, that their behaviour has life long consequences. It is about and getting what they want. It is only with maturity that they will see that this is damaging for them and those around them. Considering that their NPD parent never seemed to learn that piece I don't know if everyone ever really gets there either.

Between habits of behaviour and the fact that some of this behaviour must work or they would not do it we are really stuck knowing how to help them since much of their time is not spent around us and that will become more the case as time goes on.

I wish I knew the answers because it breaks my heart to watch this all play out. my youngest again was acting out last night and I ended up having to call the police because he hit me with a waterbottle because he was told to stay off the telephone as one of his consequences and he was refusing to cooperate with that. Hitting me seems to be his method of choice for when he is upset these days and it has to stop. He has not respect for me. He somehow thinks I have to "earn" his respect before he has to listen. The lad is heading for consequences that are going to be very serious and uncomfortable for him.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, February 3rd (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((lied2)))) I can relate. I have taken my DD to the police station.

It seems like once they cross the line of hitting or throwing things it is easier to cross the next time. My DD will do the same sort of thing, and it is usually over really simple things and when she doesnt get her way.

My girl does not respect me either. She does not seem to appreciate what she has.

I can relate to the stress and the frustration you are going through.

I've started on a new med and it has helped me dramatically in dealing with everything.


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 9:53 PM, February 4th (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Quite simple really.

Distilled to its essence, broken ones don’t believe they’re loved.
There’s a chance they might learn it,
as we have, but chances are
those who learned such behaviors from fathers (in my case), or mothers or whoever the FOO is about, whatev!
such ones have a too-much ingrained learned behavior
(watch out for line-bred pets)
to ever believe.

It seems they go to extent to prove,
seems they live this belief in their minds,
that they are unworthy and hate themselves truly
for the abuse.
Haven’t moved past it yet,
That they are unworthy,
And cannot believe that they could be loved.

That’s why they demand apologies for the raw hand they’ve been dealt and are unable to deal with,
endless apologies and entitlements to them.

So here we are, believing in love yes we do
Dammitjim yes we do!
Finding such one, such a broken one without belief.
and toxic in their shame,
I think leaving is the thing
for I cannot teach this thing, or “give it” to her.
No docere.
nO. I failed at that

When her unbelief causes her so much pain, she will initiate change?
Might be too late.
Thinkin end-of-time too late friends,

end of time

my oldest son spent some time in jail cause I wouldn’t put the bail money for him, several years ago. He’s 23 and survived, makin granbabies now.
so what do I know? At least his mom’s not an N. Can’t imagine what (((you))) have been through.
I can write this here! A gift! SI is a gift, aint askin who gave it.


Posts: 6018 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 11:49 PM, February 4th (Wednesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JJCT,

Quite gnarly. Awesome !!!

We didn't break them and we can't fix them. Move on, move on, move on.

Our kids are another story...

We are most likely the only stability they see in mind, body, and spirit as we all know, the other parent is a fraud. We get double duty. That means twice as much work. Twice as much sorrow, pain, etc. But also twice as much happiness and reward, etc.

The best we can do for our kids is be strong, firm, honest, straightforward, etc. Maintain our integrity. Keep our boundaries firm. If our kids end up like their psycho parent, at least me know we tried and did our best. As much as I'd hate to say it, it was said to me, but, "There are casualties in life."

Peace and Strength for All of the (((Tribe))).

BoB

[This message edited by bobelina at 2:36 AM, February 5th (Thursday)]


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 7:59 AM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This morning my daughter started lashing out at me again. I grounded her. She pulled out my hair, hit me, kicked me, dug her fingernails in my hand, punched me in the breast.

this is about the 4th or 5th time (maybe more) that she has attacked me. I called the police and finally filed an unruly child petition. UI wanted them to take her, but they wouldn't do it because she is a juvenile. She will go in front of the judge at the end of this month.

As my grandmother used to say, "this world, and one more."

ETA: It is difficult to remain calm while under attack. What do you do when a teenager is physically attacking?

[This message edited by Cerise at 8:16 AM, February 5th (Thursday)]


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
itsabattle
♀ Member
Member # 13036
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm sorry Cerise.

The kids are the casualities in all of this. I do wonder if my daughter is like her father. She can be so unpleasant to me and her brother. She called me a bitch last weekend. She is 11. I wonder if she has been hurt so much that all she wants to do is hurt in return. Sometimes she is ok and I wonder if it is her hormones or if is her father's infuluence. she is going on a week's activity holiday next week and I am quite looking forward to the lack of hostility in the house. Is that a really bad thing to say?


Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 8:30 AM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's not a bad thing to say. I look forward to breaks from my daughter.

The first time my daughter attacked me she was 10 and we were in the last moments of moving out after selling our home.

The next time she did it I should have called the police and filed an unruly child petition then.

I have felt sorry for her because of the bad things that have happened to her. I really should have been tougher with her.

This is weird....she has became a vegetarian and the other day asked me if clams have feelings because she was unsure whether or not it was okay for her to eat clam chowder, yet she is repeatedly emotionally and physically abusive to me.

She was even sarcastic to me in front of the police and they called her on it.

I had taken her hair extensions away, and before the police came she said that she was going to tell them that I stold them and that i was going to be the one in trouble.

She told me that most of her friends have been arrested at least once...and from talking to the police it sounds like this might be a trend with kids to act out like this. THAT is scary.


Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((((cerise)))))) You did the right thing.

Just be as firm as you can, loving but firm. Her behaviour is a choice and now she much face the consequences of that choice. Hopefully this will open her eyes.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
Cerise
♀ Member
Member # 16053
Default  Posted: 3:18 PM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Puhleese!!! She's home from school now and telling me she is sorry, is suicidal, and craving nachos.

Posts: 1691 | Registered: Sep 2007
woundedby2
♀ Member
Member # 18522
Default  Posted: 7:23 PM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((Cerise)))))

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this.


Me: BS
2 kids: DD15 and DS18
Him: The Assclown NPD
OW: "friend" of 15 years
Divorced! Feb. 2010

Everybody, soon or late, sits down to a banquet of consequences.
~Robert Louis Stevenson


Posts: 7633 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: SoCal
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, February 5th (Thursday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Tribe))),

I just baked a "Chocolate Depression Cake" from an old recipe from the Great Depression of 2007-2012. Or was it the 1930's? Hmmmmmm... Anyways, plenty for all.

Your choices for beverage are coffee, tea, or milk, or booze. No ketchup or tabasco sauce. Sorry.

BoB

ETA: I'm lame with spelling and stuff.

[This message edited by bobelina at 10:55 PM, February 5th (Thursday)]


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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