Something I have talked about with a few others here....
Is it possible that our H's who did/do have this personal inner fury from whatever source, (FOO, self-esteem lacks, various disorders, etc)..this inability to deal with life in a normal fashion....who had to resort to such dishonest, immoral means to vent their personal anger....is it possible that in their minds, the BS is now the constant reminder of what they are/were "not," intrinsically.
It is a f'ed up perception for sure, but could it make that anger feed upon itself and be directed at the very person you destroyed?
You know..."kill the messenger"...
God knows everyone has issues and warts...I don't think there is a BS here who hasn't owned their own failings as a person.....there are NO perfect people.
But somewhere along the line, the BS can be resented, perhaps for being a seemingly better person than the messed up, "broken" WS.
All delusions and illusions, for sure....but very capable of fueling misplaced anger toward the BS.
Here aagin is where IC/MC must look underneath the obvious "cheating" and look closely at what is going on "after" the D-day dramas.
Lost, do you think he would be open to considering a dialogue about his feelings about anger toward you?
Hard to see so many of us struggling. What is that?
Update on me - I did the one thing everyone says not to do. I contacted the OW.
Sent her an email and told her I felt I needed to let go of the past including her. Told her of the past 2 days with H and that I knew about their Valentine's Day exchange.
Told her what H had told me and that I didnot know what the truth was anymore.
She responded, told me what contact they have had (very little) and that she was very sorry for the past 5 years. She would take it all back if she could, and she would never contact him again. Swore on the memory of her daughter she would never contact him again.
I know I should not believe anything she says, but I knew her before this all started and believe she could be a good person. I think she is telling me the truth. Just wish I knew H was/is.
I feel like I have gotten closure with her. I honestly feel nothing towards her. If anything I actually feel pity for her. I believe she was lied too as much as I was.
As far as H and our M goes, I am taking the advice and not making any decisions right now. I still believe MC has to begin immediately and I will see where it takes me.
I know he loves me, wants to stay with me, doesn't want to continue A with her. But I also know he is still in a fog about her.
I think he thinks as long as there was no A going on, the contact was not a big deal. He said he needs to know she is going to be ok in order to deal with the guilt he feels for hurting her. He has tremendous guilt for hurting both of us so much.
He has told me this many times before.
I am not justifying his behavior, only trying to understand what he was thinking (idiot).
I think this all goes back to the lies and secrets he saw growing up with his own parents. I'm not sure he can ever understand what the truth truely means in a relationship. Does this make any sense?
I feel like he felt the lies were neccesary for what he was trying to accomplish. I don't think he saw this as "cake-eating" or a continuation of the EA. I think he believes he has been doing everything he can for me in the M, but it was ok to still make sure she was ok also.
Knowing all this, I don't know if I can ever regain the trust I need or want in the M or him. He always opened up so much more in MC and we talked so much more before and after each session. So right now I am waiting until we can get back there and see where we/I am.
Sending hugs to all the rest of you struggling.((((())))).
I really need for this to be a better day and I know many of you also do.
Keep repeating: LTA = LT recovery. Without or without our WS's.
Fnf, he has rewritten history. And he continues to do that. for eg,He would like to believe that our M and me as a W,was bad from the word go, but it wasnt. He needs to believe that, so justify him restarting the A just 6 months after the wedding, and after spending those 6 months not devoted to me, but being "subjected " to an intense seduction scheme by OW#1. This must have been incredibly intoxicating to him, given that she had rejected him before (which led to him getting involved with me).
Mum I did and do have my faults. I have NEVER claimed to be perfect, in fact, I would do the opposite and strive for that perfection all my life.
Its only now that I can see that and I am tryin to fix that for eg. the controlling part of me.
But is this blameshifting when I did something that was a response to his PA behaviour?
For eg. he resents that I make him do something. For many years, I would nag him to do what HE said he would.I would end up in tears of frustration because he wouldnt.One of 2 things would happen. He would either only then do it (after I meltdown),or still leave it, and I would do it, and he would accuse me of not giving him a chance, of being too controlling. Either way I lost. I have read up on this, and recognise that as the dance that people in a PA relationship do.
So if I say I had to for eg. plan aholiday myself, and do everything therin myself, because of his PA, is that blameshifting?
If I am too controlling (because that is part of me but became exacerbated after M), due to his PA/checkout out of the family, am I blameshifting?
Another gripe he has is my insecurity. I had this issue before M. I know that. But due to his need from the begining for privacy, for maintaining a separate life, for his flirtateous behavaiour with women, this issue of mine became HUGE.Add that to the gaslighting, and...
Is that blameshifting?
Mum, why is he so resentful?
Because I am too controlling; I make him feel bad about who he is;I carry on like I am a prefect matyr/victim and him as the bad villain with no redeeming traits; nothing he does is good enough; ....
I could go on and on.
these are also the reasons why he had the A's.
I honestly dont know why he is staying then.
And looking at him with the HT vs the SD, I dont know why I am either. The fact that we have good days just doesnt seem to cut it anymore.
I dont see myself the way he does. I used to, and sometimes, I struggle with this, but deep down I AM NOT THAT PERSON.
But then, if I were, wouldnt I be saying that anyway?
Hugs to all as we start another week in getting stronger..."head up, boobs out"......
I needed this today.
Also wanted to clarify, OW gave him (sent to his office by mail) a bag of m&m's for Valentine' Day. Told him I would like to run over them with my car a few times.
I have let her go, but I would still like to get my hands on those M&M's.
As for being controlling, I have never nagged. I ask once, I ask twice. I donít ask a third time, I either do it myself or pay someone to do it. But while he was in the A, I would ask a second time and heíd accuse me of nagging (and, yes sometimes after asking ONCE Iíd be accused). Now itís a huge guilt thing for him. Hence the big clear up in the kitchen, I guess!! Iíd say, if it doesnít have consequences if it doesnít get done, then just leave it, do it yourself or ask someone else to help.
Big hugs, sweetie. (((((LostH)))))
BUt I need to remember something. Her H is not mine.
Has Mr Run made ANY progress at all since dday? Has he reached his ceiling and is saying that thats it, or is he stuck, or reached a plateau?
Is his HT always going to be his HT, or is he attempting to make a new HT?
Mum, those were wise words you gave your H. How the heck do you manage to think of those things at that moment? I need at least a day of thinking and rethinking (and sounding off here) before I would voice that?
Your H (and actually all of our Ss) need to balance our recovery with their own path to finding who they are, who they want to be, and what they are prepared to do. My H did very little in that regard in the first year, saying he cant focus on himself, because he needed to be there for me.
Whilst everyone here was shouting at, "He needs to work on himself!"
But he wasnt prepared to do that, and if I forced him, then I would be seen as too controlling. And if I didnt, then he wouldnt.And round and round we go.
Good for you for telling your H, and hopefully setting him on his path to recovery.
You are sounding stronger.
Your feelings about OW...
Sorry HBH, but I am going to respectfully disagree, and plays Devils advocate for a minute.
I am not doing this to hurt you. I guess I have become very cynical about cheaters.
*you DONT know this woman. Would you have believed that she would have done this in the first place?
* cheaters have been known to swear on everything and anything. Night before dday#2, H swore on our holy book. I believed him.
I think he thinks as long as there was no A going on, the contact was not a big deal.
Sorry HBH. I am not in the best place and maybe shouldnt be giving advice.
I just dont want you to be naive about him, nor get hurt by him again. You cant be hurt and happy at the same time.
Nas, would H be open to a discussion?
He might, but who would?
We cant afford to see a MC now, with both of us in IC? And over here, the IC are not keen on mixing up MC with IC. Its either one or the other.Any ideas?
You know I was reading The Hendrix book today, and I can see what you are saying about the FOO issues. Hendrix mentions transference. I know I am guilty of doing that with H. I do pass on some of my dad's traits onto him. So he must be doing the same with me. I have a suspicion that he is so enmeshed with me, that he cant see past it. He is ascribing his FOO stuff onto me.
We have always been very tactile as a couple (one of those things OW wanted so badly), so showing affection and concern has never been a problem, even if it was skewed during his A. But, my big bugbear is that he has never offered information. I have had to drag it out of him, usually as a result of my investigations or assumptions. I think he had this A in such a tightly closed and locked box that itís difficult to get it open for him to look at it. And, mostly, I donít blame him for wanting to keep it in there. But I do expect his understanding and tolerance of my pain and confusion, just as I understand and tolerate his reluctance to revisit his time in the A.
Hi there Joe, VDay is just another day for most of us now. But one day, someone will make it special again for you. Donít let the past steal it from you.
My smile moment. Gave a lift ot #3son and his lovely gf this pm and we all chatted away on the 50min journey. He might be trouble on a stick, but I love him to bits. And she is sooooo sweet. It felt so nice, I might have another smile-moment later. Maybe in the gym.
Iíd say, if it doesnít have consequences if it doesnít get done, then just leave it, do it yourself or ask someone else to help.
But I DO that now.
It dawnes on me in 2004/5, that I was tired of chasing him. So I stopped asking.And just took over. Oh we would still have the fights, but now his gripe was that I TOOK OVER everything, and he doesnt have a place in the home. So I gave him token jobs for eg. kids bday parties. I would do everything, but get him to pack the car and help set up. Of course I would be exhausted but at least things got done.
After dday, he said he wanted to be part of the family again. ANd slowly, I have let him start doing things again for us. He has done good on some, he needs to be reminded on others, and some, he just cant be assed. I try to pick my battles now. And I have also learnt to let go of bringing Utopia in my home. I have a weeks clothing to sort out. I should be baking. The VC is next to me. I should be doing alot of stuff. But I am not. Cos now, I cant be assed.
Told you I was in a mood.
I just read UU's post (after I posted to you earlier) and my immediate reaction is that if I was your H I would not understand where you were coming from at all. I would not listen, I would turn it back on you and say, see you need to change, I am always the bad one. But doesn;t his reaction just prove that UU's post is spot on? .
And knowing a little about your situation from SI I can imagine why you have identified with it. But your H's view of your M is different to yours (whether he is right or wrong, has rewritten it or not) he just doesn't get that what you are actually saying to him is that you are beginning to realise that you can't change him, you can only work on you. It's a shame he can't actually see how positive that might be for both of you. But then it is a shame that any of this ever happens at all.
Ps LostH. I did exactly the same. IOW, if you canít be bothered, Iíll do it. Right down to packing the bags, car, kids. He did NOTHING. And I mean nothing. So Iím understanderbly cautious about letting go of the 100% control in everything other than his job. Oh, and his affair. Forgot about that one. Yep, that was down to him. I guess it took up so much of his time that he couldnít cope with any domestic/family stuff as well, I should have realised and given the bloke a break.
HBH. Have you told him about the emails yet? Canít you just tell him to pack it in, that any form of contact, however innocuous, however well-intentioned, however innocent, leaves the door ajar for that A to walk back into your lives? And WHY was she sending him M&Mís? Some kind of sign, a memory, a message? Red flag.
Hefty. Thatís another reason why my H is so fucked up. No one knew. Not even the doctor when he went to him for stress-related symptoms. AAAARRRRGGGHHH!!!!!
UK girl, I didn't really read that book to try and get my h off the hook at all or because I'm worried about his feelings now, it was more about settling my internal angst at How could he have done this. Because for me, by understanding that, I finally realise that it wasn't me. (I know we're told that all the time but will I really ever believe that 100%?) This book has helped me see that, so much of what is in the book was my H (still is actually) it is maybe pointing me down the path of; he probably would have done this whoever his wife was, it wasn't even our issues that caused it, it really was just him and his messed up way of thinking.
This is quite big for me because I've still been in that beginning phase of thinking that it was my fault - if only I'd been better. I'm really starting to feel that it wasn't though, and that is such a relief. Maybe my boobs are sticking out a little more today because of it (and believe me my boobs stick out quite a bit on a normal day )
Anyway, I'm sorry you're struggling today, how nice to have children you can chat with like that, I was asked by my 4 yr old son about an hour ago, "Mummy can a boy marry another boy?"
[This message edited by mumto3sat at 11:24 AM, February 18th (Monday)]
not sure if he has actually said that or whether that is your interpretation
Oh he said it, mum.Many times before, and today whilst he was talking, I was writing it out to get it as verbatim as I could, so I could see what he saying, and not feel tht that was what I thought he was saying. Know what I am saying?
You are right. He could have taken it as me saying that I realise that I cant control you, that I cant make you say or do anything.Nor do I want to show you the way.
You are on your own in finding your path, just as I am on my own, finding my path. How we behave will influence the other, that is true. But at least we will be honest and true to what we believe.And if we end up walking away from each other, at least we know that we both tried genuinely of our own hat.KWIM?
Hefty, they have a HUGE problem with intimacy. Who do they share their thoughts with? Some with BS, some with OP, and some they dont even admit to thinking.
Come to think of it, who did you share your thoughts with?
"Mummy can a boy marry another boy?"
Answer: No, but they can have a civil partnership. Why'd he ask?
We have MC tomorrow. Am I being unreasonable to ask my H for a timeline of his A? I know a lot about it, but I don't have the "bookends" of it. I know some don't want to know, but I do. I know he minimises and all that crap, but I want to know how, why and where it started and how and why it finished. Thoughts?
But looking at in now, in hindsight, if he had, he would have been right. He would not have been compassionate or kind or helpful, but he would have been right.
I was incredibly thin-skinned. I did blame most of my faults on him. I did want him to make all his changes before I started any of mine. I did focus on all his negatives, allowed no focus on mine, and gave only minimal acknowledgement to the changes he made. I did lose my shit in discussions/arguments when the focus turned to me.
In my case, and probably in yours too, many of my relationship faults were sparked by his passive/aggressive tactics and other issues (including the affairs and the gaslighting). My faults -- a hairtrigger temper chief among them -- were my conscious and subconscious choices for how to handle all his shit. Those were my choices because that is what I knew. I made those choices based on my experiences and understanding at that point. The combination of who I was and what he was doing caused me to react in a very unhealthy way.
A healthier person would have either told him to fuck himself and moved on, or would have recognized his dysfunction and gotten into MC or IC to deal with it.
I didn't do either of those. Instead, I internalized his subtle and not-so-subtle criticism. I believed it, and I built myself a wall of defense mechanisms to protect myself from him and from allowing anyone to see the pitiful, flawed being I believed myself to be.
Before d-day, I had blamed myself for all my faults. After d-day, I blamed him for a long, long time. Then, at a certain point in therapy, I started blaming my parents. It was at that point, I think, that I realized blame was taking energy I wanted for other things. And I consciously stopped doing it.
I started to frame it differently. I believed that I became who I was based on a perfect storm of dysfunction, manipulation, lack of knowledge and fear, on my part and the parts of those close to me.
And he was the same.
I had stumbled my way through life reacting rather than acting. And that I had to change that no matter what. I needed lots of energy to do that, energy that I had spent on blaming in the past.
So, anyway. If I were you, I would look and see if what your H says has any truth in it. If it does, use it to fuel change.
It doesn't mean that what he did was any less wrong. It doesn't mean that he isn't a prime A number one bugger with giant issues of his own. Cause he is a bugger and he does have tons of issues. That's a fact that no amount of words from him will ever change. Know that in yourself.
But if you can really focus on your own shit and leave his aside, you will make huge strides, Lost. When you stop being reactive it is the most freeing thing that will ever happen to you. I promise.
Do you think this concentration on you is making you feel claustrophobic, the examination of you a bit too intense, hence the anger on your part?
I think I am more sad than angry. I told him today that I am feeling sad. HAve been since last week. I asked him why didnt he ask me for lunch today knowing that we dont have the kids, that his day ws going to be quiet (I only find out this morning), and he said he never thought of it. Thats just it. He knows I have been down for while now. But he wont think to do anything to make me feel better. Only if I point it out. He said he has alot on his mind, and he just doesnt think like that.
Now friends, if you knew that your S was really upset with you last week, that you hurt her deeply and she is struggling with that, and so much more, wouldnt you even try to make amends?
He feels that since I got to vent about it (and its not as if he took it quietly)that that is over, I should focus on the positive and let it go.
I am sad that he thinks like this...still. He could behave differently. He DOES know better. But like UU said, he CHOOSES not to.
His rationale is that how can he make me feel better when I make him feel bad by the things I say. But even when I am on "good behaviour", he still CHOOSES not to do anything.
LAter on, he asked me if he tells me now to come for lunch, that he guesses it wouldnt make a diff, right? Right. Becasue I told him to. Becasue he didnt think of me first.
Mum, dont be scared.
this is the only place I can work this out. Dont leave!
Btw, my dd asked me the same question a few months ago about girls, becasue she and her friend decided that biys were too yucky. Smart girl!
I donít do ďspontaneous letís meet up for lunchĒs. Itís what he did with her. (Is this passive-aggressive behaviour, or am I over-analysing??)
My H also has tremendous guilt about hurting me and OW--as he should I think. But I think they can only ACT on those feelings with their BS.
H hasn't had to initiate C with OW to find out how she's doing cuz of our contact over OC--so he knows very well how she's doing. As far as I know, that's the only C they've had--and I agree with LostHeart when she says that our H's are arrogant enough to want to be the good guy all around and think they can "be the good guy to both of you"!!
Those feelings they have are their own to deal with--both in just living with their guilt and to find out why they are still so concerned with the hurt they imposed on OW--that's not a problem they get to solve regarding OW, not their job anymore to actively do something about OW's feelings if you know what I mean.
I would like nothing better than to be able to demand that he let her live her life and get on with things without him trying to salve his conscience by "checking up on her"--that's what is the obvious stance for you to take. We can't control their thoughts and feelings and worries, and as long as their actions are all for the purpose of healing the BS and their marriage, that's the important thing. Still having concerns for the impact of the A on OW is supposed to fade away after all the fantasy dissipates and the reasons for choosing infidelity are explored--I still wonder if I'd be totally content with a man who could end up with a big negative concerning someone he after all had a 5 year R with--wrong and stupid and hurtful and immoral as it was.
But again, that's his problem to deal with by himself, in my opinion. I don't want to hear about it and won't tolerate any active seeking out towards OW about his "concern"--that is continuing the EA to me.
The OW is our case doesn't even have what feelings your H"s OW claims to have--regret, wishing she could take it back, etc.--she still has the fantasy that they can be a couple around OC--but if what the OW wrote to you is true, that's a plus. I know we can't really believe what an OW says, unless it's negative! But still, if she said it, let it be, and hope your H will work on his end of reconciliation with you and forget trying to be all things to all people.
Great point. It was her until the angry came out early in our marriage from her. I distracted myself from it instead of confronting it. That is what kills me. I should have NEVER accepted this treatment. I always had anger FOO issues for me with a yelling alcoholic house and used it as a rationale to never be like that. WS would yell at me demands. Would remind me of bad parts of my childhood. If anything it would make me want to do the opposite. My wife from her FOO was shown to yell to get what you want. I respond really well to sugar and honey. She gave me tons of that pre-marriage when I think about it.
Thinking way too much more any BS involved with an LTA really intimate with their thoughts with WS? WS pull back in ways I believe as they were not putting 100% into the M. I felt something was missing in our M and could not nail it. It was the A seeing it went on my entire marriage! DOH that still blows my mind.