I'm headed to bed. Sorry I missed the party at 5. I know I would have had a better time than being here.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Again...Steering Clear...I have found it amazing and, more importantly, my H is absorbing it. I am not at all religious (matter of fact may be some weird spiritual thing according to my IC ) but this book has explained so much.
Just want to add SVS too Numb for your hugs. And hugs to you babe! You made it today!! A GIGANTIC WOW about your H's revelation at dinner. Oh how we ALL yearn to hear those words. It's probably the best gift he could have ever given you. (((((Numb)))))
P.S. Everyone here needs to get that book! I'm buying one for our MC.
One thing I have to ask. I am 18mths out from DDay. I was a complete blubbering wreck for 6mths, v easily upset for another 7/8mths, since when there have been no more significant details have emerged about the A. I have slowly come to feel stronger and more settled in myself, particularly since NYear. In myself, not in my M. Certainly not about him. I am looking at him now, today, and wonder if he has killed the love I had for him. Truly, I donít feel anything and havenít done for a couple of weeks. Iíd say since an incident to which I had a diff reaction.
What happened was that we had been working all morning on some spreadsheets, and I managed to save the wrong lot (I expect weíve all done that!). I did not get upset and neither did he. We left it all, went to the gym, came back for a lite bite and I said I was taking the dog out Ė that I needed to get back to doing all those routine things that went out of the window on DDay. This is what I wrote in my journal:
ďIt was as if Iíd stabbed him. Oh, God, Iím so sorry. But I canít keep telling you Iím sorry, but I am. I didnít go to him, if I had he would have lost the smidgen of self-control that was stopping him from crying, but his eyes were ready to shed tears. For the first time, it wrenched at my heart. For (I think) the first time, I didnít silently think Ďhow dare you cry, how fucking dare you, this pain that YOU caused and you have the nerve to try and show me how much youíre hurting?í Ē
Now I feel nothing. I think about what he did, how long he held her in his thoughts, dragging me down to where she used to live, how he pursued her and loved her again, and I feel my life has been a lie on and off since 1989!!! Have I given up, or am I flat lining, or is there some hope of something? Am I withdrawing to protect myself or to punish him in an inverted way? I donít understand it. Am I falling into depression? I donít know what depression is, Iíve never suffered from it.
I have to go out til mid pm, but some reassurances from those who have felt like that would go some way to making me feel better about it. I donít have MC until Tues. Bit long. Sorry.
Our first house party! Hope our neighbours didnt complain about you guys after I went to sleep. I can see alot of empty bottles and torte crumbs lying around.
Unfort, since I dont do the domestic goddess thing anymore, I'll leave it to the rest of you.
My H! I honestly dont know whether to laugh or cry.
He fell asleep whilst I was online. Later on, he cuddled up and tried to get something going. Did he think that I would drop my pants for him after yesterday's disappointment??
(And you all know its not just about the Vday thing)
He got a bit miffed because he was stroking me and I started snoring.
Oops. Well, I was tired.
Anyway he tried again when I was in the shower this morning, and I asked him how could he carry on like everythings fine. His answer was that he was trying to reconnect. With what??
This man...<shaking my head sadly>
Mum, in a pm, asked if I was sad/angry, because I feel that he is banging the nails into the coffin of our M.
I couldnt have put it better.
I am reminded of what unicornsearcher said recently about her M, given that her WH had also been unfaithful throughout their M.
I do not consider us to have anything but a legal marriage& a piss poor one at that.
He hasnt even apologised. Unfreekingbelievable.
On the bright side, I told him earlier to make his own way to IC from work. That was a relief. The kids and I had a relaxing supper (I made one of their fav)and for dessert, I gave them a little box each of their own special fav chocs. We sat around and chatted, just like old times. The girls went to sleep without a fuss, and DS actually let me do some tapping on him befor he slept.
Just like the old days.
Enough of me.
UKgirl, you have heard of the plain of lethal flatness right? Do you think you are going through that?
I went through something similar around from Oct to Dec last year, and its quite pleasant actually. You are a bit removed from everything. Nothing really gets to you. I liked it!
I think you are also looking at him dispassionately, because you can see him much clearer now. No more rosetints, no fogs, just a man with alot of baggage, a weak, and dare I say, pitiful boyman.
Thats what I think anyways.
I am pleased that some of you had a good/ok time last night. Its a start,right? They (WS) wont get it right straight away, but at least, they are learning.
For the rest of us,
The day is over.
Now we have Mother's Day to look forward to.
Well done Nas!
Mum should be in recovery now. Hope the little blighter takes.
Have a good day, you all.
OTC, I wish I'd been on the massage table at 5!
Our "tradition" for most holidays is we get each other a funny card and a serious card. Since he didn't bother with trying to tell me how he felt, I didn't give him mine either.
The "mood" was just off all day. He didn't call me 20 times (relief and concern). I finally texted him around 4 and he called me back to tell me he was on his way home. Said he was really busy and that's why he didn't call.
When he got home he was all "oh, my back hurts, my neck hurts, I'm really beat" effectively cutting off any serious discussion or anything else. And he doesn"t throw up walls right! Well, at least the torte turned out ok. Can't wait to see what happens at MC tonight. I'm sure her first question is going to be "how was V-day?"
When are these stupid "comments" going to stop running through my head? When am I going to take what he says as being what he means NOW instead of immediately jumping to "that time"?
This morning we were talking about a traffic tie up on the turnpike. So I had to come down and find out exactly where it was.. I had to "understand" where the accident was. I found it, told H why I wasn't sure where it was because I had never been past his exit on the turnpike, I've never gone into Jersey over the Delaware Memorial Bridge. "yes you have" is his response. And my FIRST thought is "maybe you went that way with one of your girlfriends, but not me!" Instead I just walked out of the room. 6:30 AM is not a time to start something.
Gonna run for now. I have an eye dr. appt this morning, so I may be off for a while since he dialates my eyes and I can't read worth a damn after that.
Take care ladies (and gents)... it's Friday. Make it a great one!
If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?
Mine went suprising well all things considered. I got my WW an assorted colored rose colelction and a teddy bear and bath stuff. She left me notes and got me a giant V-day cookie, ballons, a nice card, and a gift card to JCP.
We went out to dinner with DD to a nice Italian resteraunt and it was normal. It felt good.
I am really hoping this is the start of us really beginning to R. Between her fog and the pain I still am going through it is so hard.
I am feeling a bit better that we may make it through this. I know still WAY to early to tell but yesterday was a start.
"I abused you...you have definitely been abused by me, before and during and after, and I need to find out why and how I could have done that to you."
That has been playing on my mind all morning.
That admission, IMHO, was the best Vday present.
(Even though the cynic in me wants to check the shelf life too!)
Have any of your ICs suggested that you may have some sort of dissociation issue? My IC gave them questionnaire (DES)to fill in, and (you know me! )I have been reading up on this dissociation, and frankly,it doesnt look good.
App you have to be in therapy for on average 3-5 years! And many of the people who do have this "condition" if thats what its called, came from abusive/neglected childhoods. And they have even tied in self inflicted harm to this.
Its not that I am scared to delve into this (she said with hands shaking and toes tapping),but should we be doing this now, with all this A-crap still to sort out?
from the reading, it all seems so harsh and intense.
I havent been accused of dissociating before. If anything, my problem, I think,is I opposite-dissociate too much!
My experience was that as I worked through a lot of the FOO stuff and the marriage stuff, my need to dissociate through daydreams/fantasies/books/my own writing diminished significantly.
I dont know what I am worried about. I mean, I dont see whats the "cons" of it are. I coped didnt I? How else would I have made it this far? You can be breaking down every time something bad happens.Yikes! I would have ended my life years ago then!!
I know this sounds a bit dense, bit I dont see why dissociating is a bad thing.
I think dissociating often goes hand-in-hand with denial, or enables denial. It takes the focus of your mind from what is "real" and painful but should be addressed to something that is comfortable and pleasant but meaningless.
Most defense mechanisms are tactics that serve us well in childhood when we are esssentially powerless. When they linger on into adulthood, unfortunately, they often keep us powerless.
Does that make sense?
I just dont want to become this blathering mess of emotions. Its hard enough as it is, KWIM?
She said she thinks that my dissociation techniques are not helping me anymore, that I am feeling my feelings and that I am struggling because (1)I dont want to feel,
(3)I am fighting them.
I know this sounds all whiny, but I was hoping to get to a better place this year. And now knowing that this is going to take years and years...it just seems so "much". I guess I am tired.Its been a long journey already.
But it doesn't work that way. It's like a fucking diet. Takes twice as long to take it off as it did to put it on and it's also no fun at all.
Takes time and effort. Pretty soon, when you start working through this and figure out the right way for YOU to express yourself emotionally, you won't feel like a blathering mass of emotions, you'll know you are just a normal woman who thinks and feels deeply.
[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 8:19 AM, February 15th (Friday)]
And I find that my concerns are not anything I can control. The serenity prayer just hasn't taken hold with me yet. H may not be doing anything blatently wrong, but it's quite obvious he doesnt' want to delve into this any further. And I'm trying to make that ok with me.
I even realized today that part of the reason I was so uncomfortable with my previous therapist was the way she approached my anger therapy.... telling me that I put people off, scared them away when I raged or when I expressed it in other ways.
Since this therapist has identified that I have a "people pleaser" association, what I heard from therapist #1 is "if you get angry, you will make everyone around you unhappy", so I stifled the anger, telling myself that it was ok to do that because I needed him around. I think she put the burden of the "tone" of our R all on me.
I did the disassociative stuff all during his A... turned my attention to the kids or the house, or work rather than deal with the fact that I had no real partner. But the people pleaser in me all the while was saying "you have no partner because you aren't good enough."
Fuck I hate this. I hate that I have to monitor myself, restrain myself, distract myself. IC told me the other night that I have great restrain, great patience. I used to think they were virtues, now I think they're my faults.
Time huh? Jeez, who knew TIME could be a 4-letter word.
I hate that I have to monitor myself, restrain myself, distract myself.
Great virtues vs great faults.
I am learning that its a fault when I suffer for it. Its a virtue when it doesnt cost me more than I can spare.
edited for deleting TMI. Sorry.
[This message edited by Lost Heart at 9:56 AM, February 15th (Friday)]
The new info i got was: # 1 , it was EA only for 2 to 2 1/2 yrs before it became physical ( not sure if i buy this and i feel it may be a sticking point but i can admit to the possibility looking back at ) mostly her telling him how wonderful he was ( they only saw each other at work and that wasn't daily, and there would've been other peeople around 95% of the time (all true) , he says while he knew he was interested he never realized till now how that affected us , but knows now that it's why he lost interest in me sexually and that it was actually then that he started re-writing the marriage and making me the bad guy. He also kept telling himself during and after the affair that it meant nothing , it was only sex. I think even then that he was terrified by the thought that he loved her. The man has absolutely no understanding of what he felt, he is only beginning to see just how desperate his need to feel good about himself really was, then and always.
How he said it ended never added up to me, couldn't see how this pathetically desperate hag who wanted out of her own marriage but needed someone who could pay the rent first would end it as simply and matter of fact as he always said she did. And he has always and still maintains this is true. We had just returned from vacation, he ran into her at the local coffee shop and said "i'm back, when can we get together" . She: " oh i don't want to do that anymore, i'm with **** now , ( a "friend" she had been mentioning to him for a few months prior) . Him: " Oh, are you sure". She: "yes". Him: " well i hope you're happy, you deserve it". And they walk away. While the retardedness of that fits him to a tee, i couldn't see her not giving him some sort of ultimatum. It sounds just too stupid. He has also said from the beginning that he barely remembers anything about that day except the enormous relief that it was over, he said his first thought was, " thank god, i almost made the biggest mistake of my life". Meaning , he was trying to get up the courage to leave me. He says also that he was telling himself and believing that wanting to leave had nothing to do with her just the "bad marriage". The hard part is that today he still wants to believe that. I think that his real fear, the real reason telling me the truth was so hard is that he's terrified to admit not only to me but to himself most of all that he thought he loved her. And yet a part of him knows that to tell me how he behaved , how he thought, things he said will "show " me just that and then he'll have to admit it to himself.
. Like most of our H's he has been afraid that anything he told me would be the last straw for me. K, i get that. But according to him the other reason he was afraid to tell me this bit is because he thought i would think that " i wanted you to be like her" . OK , keep that sentance in mind and tell me what you think, was he afraid of that or something he can't even acknowledge to himself ? Keep in mind also that this has been over since 94 so he's had a lot of time to re-write and forget.
Sorry if this is TMI but you may get a chuckle out of part of it. The sexual part was comprised of more him getting oral than actual intercouse. He told her he didn't get that at home (true, it was rare but not because i didn't like it and of course he never even mentioned to me that it was a problem) He told her that it was "their special thing" , "it was only between them and it was what made them an us" , "it made her special" etc,etc, God i don't know if that makes me want to puke or laugh, can anyone really be that stupid, that pathetic? Him and her, because the truth is he meant that, in as much as admitting now he knew even then that he would have gladly accepted oral from anyone else who came along then . WTF??? He was absolutely enthralled with the BJ's, esp that she "finished". OK, that being said here's the rest of what he was afraid to tell me and the part that actually made me laugh even though it hurt to hear. In a way it kinda makes me feel i snuck in there and fucked it all up for both of them. The second last time he was with her, i t was always in her car, she gave him oral, after zipping up, sitting with his arm around her, her head on his shoulder, he leans his head back on the seat and says, " Fuck, i wish it was like that at home" . Ooops.! Her head snapped up and she said " what do you mean, i thought you said that was only between us, it was special" An arguement followed, a lot of grovelling and ass kissing where he tried to convince her he didn't mean it that way, it was special , only between them , nothing to do with feelings for me. and so on blah blah blah. He at least must have thought he succeeded because he met with her again a few days later before we left for vacation and for what turned out to be the last time, and actually asked for oral " so he'd have something to remember" . When she finished he said she looked up at him and said " there, you'd better not forget " . We left for vac the next day and when we came back it ended as i desribed above. I've heard so many lies i just don't know but do you think that ending makes more sense when considering his supreme Freudian slip of the tongue? While H was the bigger paycheck and she'd invested all that time in him , the other guy was single and therefore less complicated i assume but that slip had to have made her second guess the situation . And also of course have no way of knowing what if anything happened while we were on vac between her and other guy . He says looking back it is easy to see that she was screwing them both at the same time at least in the last couple months because he no longer had to request oral , she was just johnny on the spot, if it was more oral than intercourse all along then during that period it was mostly oral at her instigation, he never had to ask. Was she tired, poor thing? The main problem i have with believing any of this shit, the way of the whole affair is that i just cannot imagine or understand that 2 people could be so stupid, so pathetic to believe the words they speak, to actually feel something so crude and cheesy could be real. I mean really, when a guy tells you are "special" because you give him a blow job" how can you not know that you are being used and he also thinks you're an idiot. And him, he really felt in someway that it was special , how could a man be so dumb ? How could 2 people feel that they had "a relationship" . I just can't fathom being able to even try to convince myself that BJ's , sex and a lot of "you're so wonderfuls" were meaningful. I would be too embarressed at just thinking someone believed i was so stupid to ever even look at them again let alone go back for more. Guess i sort of answered my own question, i have a hard time believing a lot of what he says because i can't imagine him being so stupid and gullable. I have a very logical mind and this all defies any sense of logic i' ve ever known. Fuck, this is screwed up. BTW, his FOO issues that have come to light recently also go a long way to explain just how deep his need for approval and acceptance, esp from women, need to like himself really is. Imagine being told by your mother everytime you got in trouble, even as a small boy , that it would have been better if she'd never had you, that it would have been better for everyone if you'd never been born. I can't.
Anyway there's a whole lot more to come because he says he's told so many lies along the way he only hopes i will give him another chance to try and clear them all up. So many lies he said that he doesn't even remember half of them, it will take months and months just to answer all the questions over again before i can begin to piece it all together. He asked me to consider MC now and that there is nothing " big" left to come out that there really never was at least not the way i thought, that it was all big to him because anything he admitted to me could be the one thing that made me leave.
I don't know what i think really, if i do have it all or if it's enough. But i think the time has come for me to decide either way, to take that chance and "try" finally or not. I must admit that i'm not sure why but today i feel different somehow and I have to figure that out first. He wants to talk as much as we can all weekend, he wants to really start and hopes i do too so perhaps i will at least figure out what's different if anything is. I'm afraid though and only you all might understand why, i don't trust myself more than anything. I'm afraid that i only feel somethings different because i'm tired and i want to believe him. I'm deeply afraid that i will ignore my "gut" and be only deluding myself like i did for years, and living in denial. I'm so afraid of that.
Please, anybody who's managed to get to the end of this and are able to make any sense of it, i am desperate for your input.