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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs V I I I
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I bought a blank card. And here's what I wrote.

I find it ironic that you ask me for a decision on whether to commit to this marriage or get out.

I made that decision 29 years ago and never once thought different until you changed the rules. I never took a lover or two or fifty to get me over the ďtoughĒ spots. I never abandoned my promises. I was not the one who gave up.

If I have doubts, you put them there. If I wonder if youíre sincere this time, itís because you lied for so many years.

And now every day I make the choice to stay. Iíve never left you for one night, for one moment. Iíve never even threatened. Iíve never sought advice from an attorney. Iíve never once come down on the ďget outĒ side of the fence.

I am here every night in your bed, every morning wake beside you. And itís NOT because I have nowhere to go, or because Iím afraid to be on my own. Itís not because I have no other options. Itís because I love you and choose to be here.

I canít promise you forever again, but I promise that every day I will wake and fight for us. And hope that someday youíll realize what a gift that is.

Is that how we all feel? Or is it just me?


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost,

I lashed out at my husband for a long time, before and after d-day. It only really began to stop for me when I realized that all the anger that I had pent up inside me had built up basically from birth.

When I actually began to look at my childhood and realize that my parents had treated me badly and that I did not get the love and nurture that most people get and take for granted. Somehow, knowing that alone started my healing. When I was able to look at myself and my life and realize there were reasons for all that anger it also gave me more empathy for my husband and the ways that his abusive childhood had shaped and damaged his coping mechanisms.

It's a process, Lost. And I suspect part of it for you is just doing the work of looking back, no matter how much you dont want to, and understanding what your childhood was and how it impacted you. I really resisted doing that, too. But it is necessary. One quicky exercise that really helped me was to stop when I had one of those really strong reactions -- anger, fear, panic -- and ask myself when in the past I felt this way. What does this remind me of? The answer almost always was something hurtful from childhood that I had tried my best to repress.

Oddly, other than in odd flashes, I never really had a lot of anger at my parents, not even my mother, who was particularly brutal. I knew that they had done the best they could, and that they were the way they were because of the bad things that had hapened to them. To get to the bottom of that you'd have to trace it back to adam and Eve.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To get to the bottom of that you'd have to trace it back to adam and Eve.

Yeah, no kidding. Sure makes me feel inadequate to raise a child.

So in my book (Facing Codependence) I came across a paragraph that made me think about the anger or lashing out. It reads:

Resentment is the anger you feel when you think someone has victimized you. It might be called "victim anger". It causes me to cling to a need to have the person hurt or punished to make up for the suffering I think he or she has caused me. The person I resent becomes my Higher Power as I think obsessively about what he or she did to me and how I can get even, all the time recreating the shame-filled or pain-filled episode in my mind.

But as I set out to accomplish my goal of getting revenge or punishing, I get the opposite of what I want. The intensity of my anger and my need for revenge or punishment drives away from me not only the person who triggered my shame, pain, and anger, but also those I want close to me. This creates an even greater sense of isolation resulting in increasing shame, pain, and anger. In my opinion the need to get revenge or punish comes from the belief that if I can sufficiently punish the person, I can keep this painful experience from ever happening to me again. This immature thinking developed in my childhood when I was unable to protect myself. But as an adult, I do have the ability to take care of myself. I must shift away from immature thinking and fantasizing revenge into more rational thinking about what has happened.

It goes on then to talk about what BT was saying:

I believe that everyone is conducting their lives out of what they percieve to be the right thing to do for themselves. Our injuries from others often result from their need to take care of themselves, rather than their desire to hurt us. Such people are usually not aware that they may be taking care of themselves offensively and inappropriately. But we, in our immature way of thinking, believe they are aware and that they have deliberately set out to hurt us. As we mature, we gradually begin to accept this concept that we are not always the cause and center of other people's behavior and thinking.

And about forgiveness:

Forgiving a person who has hurt me means that I give up the need for revenge or punishment so that I can feel good inside myself. It doesn't mean that I keep the person in my life constantly battling to protect myself and being hurt in the process. It doesn't mean I approve of the person's actions. It just means I simply acknowledge my feelings, stop replaying the event in my mind, and give up the idea of revenge or punishment.

(BT, I really like this book. And I'm starting to see that my H may just be codependent too--just at the other "extreme".)

[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 1:48 PM, February 2nd (Saturday)]


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This immature thinking developed in my childhood when I was unable to protect myself. But as an adult, I do have the ability to take care of myself. I must shift away from immature thinking and fantasizing revenge into more rational thinking about what has happened.

Run - this is a great concept. That I will mature, learn to take care of myself and stop fantasizing about revenge. But, somewhere inside of me is a four year old that flops on the floor and stars kicking a screaming "It's not fair, I want revenge!!!"

Lost - if it helps, your anger/rant is very mild in comparison to some of the things I have hurled at my H since dday...even used the dreaded "c" word to describe him. Believe or not all he said was "yes, that is what I was". I have tried to contain the anger so that he feels safe. I find now that the anger and the hurt have sort of merged into this pain that comes out in waves of tears and sobs and is best done under the covers alone or in the shower.

I did find one thing today that helps. My H keeps asking what he can do to make me feel better when I am feeling really sad. I always say "nothing" because truly I could think of nothing that would help. Up until now, only the passage of time. However, today I told him that I want him to look me in the eyes and tell me that he will not hurt me, that he will protect me. That helps more than him telling me he loves me because he told me he loved me before but did what he did anyway. I want him to tell me every day, more than that even, looking into my eyes, that he will not hurt me.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 1:24 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But we, in our immature way of thinking, believe they are aware and that they have deliberately set out to hurt us. As we mature, we gradually begin to accept this concept that we are not always the cause and center of other people's behavior and thinking.

Well, I never thought of myself as immature.... Looks like we've got two of us in the same stage of development.

Forgiving a person who has hurt me means that I give up the need for revenge or punishment

Oh, I can use part of this one because I don't care to have any revenge affair or leave him to "show him what he did". But yeah, I like to take him down a peg or two when he gets on his High and Mighty and Moral horse too.

Alot of the forgiveness might come when I see true transparency, that he has no hidden agenda.

I dont' think I've ever deliberately hurt someone for selfish reasons.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 2:29 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy, I think you summed it up wondefully. We are here because we chose to be and I truly hope my wh will oneday realize how precious it is to have that commitment form someone. That is somehting I will probably never have again.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy,

I think that was an awesome message in your card. And from the heart.

I'm curious to see how your FWH responds.

Good luck!

HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:41 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTC - did you see this? OMG, the first thing I thought about was could they be carrying this in their mouths as well? I am sorry if this is a trigger but thought you would want to see it.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080202/ap_on_he_me/hpv_oral_cancer;_ylt=AsSovjC51lCqeDXDd4tbMu.s0NUE


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 10:00 PM, February 2nd (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good Lord. <<shaking head>>


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just s second here to pop in and say hello.

During the week when I'm busy everybody has time to talk talk talk. On the weekend when I'm free it gets quite as a church mouse in here. But that's a good thing. Hopefully all are enjoying the weekend with family and friends.

Hope you have a great day!!

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 9:58 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do understand that some of my anger is FOO related. Strangely I also dont get very angry at my parents. I do have quick bursts of anger, resentment but mostly, deep sorrow. I guess I also get that they, esp my M, did the best they knew how. Well, I strongly hope so, for my F's sake.

But H (shaking head)

Can I ask how your WH's react(ed) when your lashing out and anger?

How should he be reacting? Is he expecting too much from me, to be further along the process than I am, and to be more trusting of him?
Am I expecting too much from him to be more supportive and selfless when I do have an anger/fear episode, for him to understand that yes, whilst I am displaying angre, that majority of the time, that source is fear?
And that he should be trying to allay those fears, instead of focusing on his offensive strategy?

I am trying to work in my FOO issues. I am also trying to build a future with someone like my H.

He has made many strides since dday2. But one of my core issues with him hasnt changed...his desire to protect himself at any cost.

Guess we are still a work in progress...

****
Weepy, your letter was so heartfelt. Sometimes I wish you didnt wear your heart on your sleeve with your H. Sometimes I wish you would tell him buck up or get out.

****
OTC, you should have heard from GP by now, am I right? Are you ok?

****
FSA, I am here Sweetie!!!
Whats for lunch?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 10:35 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just popping in a sec to answer this...

Can I ask how your WH's react(ed) when your lashing out and anger?

My H took every bit of venom (and there was plenty of it, I'm a Scorpio with a sharp tongue at times anyways) I through at him. Usually he would be quiet. Sometimes he would say reassuring things... even if I called him names, he would remind me "I am here now, totally committed" over and over and over again. If I said things that were incorrect i.e. "You loved OW like you did me" then he would gently correct me. SO, probably 95% of the time my H would not lash back. THe other 5% of the time he would get frustrated and either walk away or get defensive. Well, anmother 1% of the time he would actually say something mean in response. But when you consider that the first year I was lashing out at him daily, you can see how infrequently that was in comparison.

We are all only human. You can NOT go through this LTA aftermath without having almost insane bouts of anger towards the person who betrayed you, IMHO. Unfortunately, I had trouble venting in appropriate ways. I did work on this in counseling, though. But even with counseling I still was prones to intense fits of anger.

So just know that you are not alone.

FSA, Yeah, I noticed the same thing about how quiet it is on weekends. I'm in the same boat, working during the week and it's harder to catch up. Maybe we should have a LTA Support Group Phone list... then we could just ring someone on the phone when we needed support. Not to be posted openly here, of course. But I had this when I lost my son in my other support group and I tell you it saved my life. Anyway, I hope you have a good Super Bowl Sunday.

Hugs to the rest of the tribe. Extra prayers go out to OTC awaiting those test results. I'm thinking of you, sweetie.
HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 11:05 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shirley, I have done lots of reading on the suspicion that HPV causes other cancers, especially throat, mouth, etc. Ironically I know three people who have had throat cancer in the past three years. None of them ever smoked and all three led above average healthy lifestyles. Two of them I know very well and am quite close to. I went through all the terrible bits of their treatment (which is extensive and very debilitating while going through it) with them and now I sit here wondering if it will be me one day. All because of ....... well, you guys know the rest. Good news is that U of Chgo has the best treatment protocol in the country for cancers of the throat and mouth and there is an 85% cure rate there for squamous cell carcinoma which is usually the type that results in that region of the body. I HATE that I know so much about this, but knowledge is power and all I can do is wait and keep a close watch for anything abmormal. There is so little known about how HPV attacks in this way at this point and very little conclusive research at this point. Hopefully in the next few years there will be more. This HPV is serious stuff and I have done more reading on it than I care to. At this point I just scare the shit out of myself with it. I would rather focus on maintaining a healthy lifestyle and hope for the best. Oh, ironically, all three of the people I know who have this cancer had life shifting events in their lives a year to three years before detection which IMO seems to activate a dormant HPV virus and set it in motion to begin the malignant cells growing. I can't stress this enough you guys - this LTA stuff can do things to your body that can become irreversible. I can't stress enough how important it is to take EXTREMELY good care of yourselves. Vitamins, exercise, fresh air, elimination of as much stress as possible. I am thinking along these lines more than ever. This HPV thing has woken me up to this being a fight for my life and physical well being more than ever.

Lost, I most likely won't have the results of my PAP for another week or so. They are not that speedy around here. Will let everyone know as soon as I do. A good result is only the beginning of good news and it can change over time. Even if the PAP comes up negative this time there will most likely be years of keeping a close watch meaning PAPS every three months and also this whole throat and mouth thing as the virus can go into dormancy and then come out swinging again. Can't tell you guys how happy I am that my H fucked a skanky, diseased piece of shit and now I can spend the next several years of my life worrying about cancer! As if the LTA wasn't enough........


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wanted to add something. I ordered the book No Mor recommended the other day: Steering Clear by Earl Wison and I have found this to be one of the most informative books on WHY and HOW engages in infidelity. I HIGHLY recommend it! Thanks No Mor! Great book!


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

SO, probably 95% of the time my H would not lash back. THe other 5% of the time he would get frustrated and either walk away or get defensive. Well, anmother 1% of the time he would actually say something mean in response. But when you consider that the first year I was lashing out at him daily, you can see how infrequently that was in comparison.

Yeah, probably the same for my H.

Wanted to add something. I ordered the book No Mor recommended the other day: Steering Clear by Earl Wison and I have found this to be one of the most informative books on WHY and HOW engages in infidelity. I HIGHLY recommend it!

Thanks! That's great to know. It's on my "list" in Amazon.

BTW, those of you ordering books from Amazon, are you remembering to order from the little "shop now!" Amazon box to the left--under the Healing Library and Dr. Phil? SI does get a small portion for anything ordered by going through that link.


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((OTC)))

I am sorry for even bringing it up but I thought you might want to know. Guess you are the resident expert on all things related to this. Am keeping my fingers crossed for your results next week.

I ordered Steering Clear on Thursday and should have it any day. I am looking forward to it. Finished Eat, Pray, Love and found it incrediblyy insightful. Handed off to H who is still working on Getting the Love you Want.

Oh, Hope, EO got your PM and will be back. He had a crazy weekend between the kids sports and me being just too down to deal with it.

Hugs to the tribe...


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can I ask how your WH's react(ed) when your lashing out and anger?

He just bears it. I strongly believe that part of the healing process for both of us is that 1) I am able to feel and release the anger and pain that this causes. Bottling it up would just destroy me as I wear my heart on my sleeve. 2) He needs to "bear witness" to the devastation he has wrought. No runnning and hiding from it but helping me by bearing my pain and carrying my anger. I try not to lash out in a brutal way (like when I used the c-word) but I have had days when I just unleash it all. Only a few times has he pushed back. When he does, I stop, look at him and say "are you being defensive about what you did?" That usually stops him in his tracks. However, and this is a big one, I have had to learn to listen to him if I am being unfair and hanging non-affair M issues on the affair.

Sorry, long-winded, but in general, he has been very good about dealing with my pain in whatever form it takes.

ETA: a "not" where it was definitely needed!

[This message edited by hurtshirley at 11:43 AM, February 3rd (Sunday)]


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 2:14 PM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I swear someone is watching my house, and when they see me leave they put the word out, o.k. everybody start posting she's gone!!!

Came back from church to find weekend activity on here.

Can I ask how your WH's react(ed) when your lashing out and anger?
My H is about 50/50. He is able to take it at times and then other times he lashes back. I wish he were able to do like HB's H and try and comfort me when I get that way. Like you said Lost, my anger is stemming from fear and pain. I wish that he could understand that regardless of what comes out of my mouth that I am looking for comfort and reassurance from him. Not that I am perfect but I do "mostly" stick to the facts and the point when I get like that. While he on the other hand lashes back at me with hurtful things that are not factual, just meant to inflict pain. I could go on and on but I guess that's enough.

OTC, my dad had throat cancer on his voice box several years ago. It was not nice but he had the best of care at M.D. Anderson in Houston and came through with flying colors. Do your friends still have their voice left? Dad had a great Dr. that was able to remove the diseased part but still leave the rest of his voice box. He is able to talk (has a very scratchy voice which sounds like music to all of us). He did not have to have the trake (sp?) except just for surgery.

Guess I need to try the Steering Clear book. The How and Why drives me crazy. Have had a slight rough time today with how. How are they able to see you day in and day out and continue to walk out that door to ow. It is just more than I can understand. It's just so hard to understand something that I would never be able to do.

But the good news. I'm having a hard time today and I haven't had any chocolate. So I guess that means chocolate is not the cause of anything. Think I'll go out and buy a bucket full of it.

I know I've told H this many times, but not sure if I've told ya'll.
I'm tired. I just get so extremely tired of this fight. Not fighting with H. Just fighting with living with the LTA. Once again I want that lobotomy. Something, anything that will make it go away and leave me alone.

But I'm o.k. and tomorrow will be a new day to try and get it right once again.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 3:15 PM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

<looking around> I thought I caught FSA leaving on the hidden camera? Quick, everbody post their favorite beauty secret or really funny joke!!!

BTW - I'm going to a superbowl party soon. Whose turn is it to watch the hidden camera while I'm gone?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, February 3rd (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I knew something strange was going on.
But what can I do to get in on the beauty tips? I need those more than I need the jokes!!

Have fun at your party.

Maybe we should have a LTA Support Group Phone list
Lord with the way I still go up and down on the roller coaster, ya'll would be begging to get your name off the list. Seriously, it would be nice though.

O.K. I'm finished. Ya'll can go on about your sneaking around me.

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
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