I know because I am the same way. I think, or actually, I know, that for reconciliation to happen, it is going to take a real true committed effort on my part to stay. And I know, I am still not ready to make that commitment. Why? gosh tons of reasons.. fear, what if I am missing out on someone better, what if my h messes up again, and on and on.
Sometimes my H says he thinks that is what is holding him back from throwing himself 100% back to me. He is afraid that if i still leave after he has given all of himself then that he would never be able to get through that rejection.
But, I am sort of feeling like 'well, you go first'. Kwim?
Scary as hell.
I know you must be feeling like you are being attacked. Please dont. Whatever is being said here, is being said with love and with a definite desire to see a Tribester come out on top.
It is SO hurtful when the WH tells usthat we need to get our stuff together. It irks me on such a deep level that I see red.Its like pouring salt on top of everything else. Just last week, my H said, "You have some serious issues!" in not a very nice way. ANd I thought, "How DARE you judge me? Half of issues are because of you, you POS."
Anyone else could tell me that (ok, not anyone else, since I have developed a low tolerance ), but NOT HIM!
But I know I have issues, due to him AND my FOO. Its just not helpful when he points it out, sort of like rubbing it in my face or (it feels like)justifying our situation, KWIM?
Do you read what Run and OTC and BT told me last week about IC and my fears? They are all right.
I am going to fix myself...for my self. Along the way, if we tackle the M, than good. But I am not going to let what H or my FOO determine the rest of my life anymore.
It is MY life. I am only going to get 1 run here.
Weepy,what H did to you and the kids, was horrible. I dont know your FOO issues, but I have a feeling they werent too good either. You (and the kids) did not deserve to be treated like that. You worked hard at this M. YOu made many sacrifices. There were many many times where your spirit was crushed,but you kept on going. Noone here will ever doubt how much you have put into the M or your family.Facing and fixing ourselves WILL NOT change those facts.
Now its time for YOU Weepy.
By some divine force, you have been given a year off from work which you can invest in yourself.H is working and seems to be moving along...slowly but theres some rumoured movement. The kids are all good. Its Weepy's time now.
We will do this together Weepy. I am just as scared as you are...of so many things, but dammit, I am going to do it. Next year this time, I want to SEE and FEEL a different LH.
And like my IC says, if H does his work, he will be next to me; if he doesnt, he will be left behind. I cant control that. But I'll be damned if I am going to sacrifice anything else for that man.
You have incredible drive, endurance and optimisim Weepy. Do this for you.
Those mind movies...
Good morning FSA.
edited for crappy grammar
[This message edited by Lost Heart at 4:07 AM, January 28th (Monday)]
he still has some overly-critical tendencies that have been there before A and still rear their ugly heads.
Oh absolutely. I hear "this is what is wrong with you" and I think "how dare you tell me what's wrong with me when you won't even look at what's wrong with YOU." Then I wonder if he had all these "critisms" with his GF. Did he tell her what was wrong with her too? Was he abusive to her? Did she even get to see the damn anger and frustration? No dammit... he wanted to fuck her so he played whatever role he had to. Took risks, did whatever SHE and HE wanted. What about doing it for me?
Its just not helpful when he points it out, sort of like rubbing it in my face or (it feels like)justifying our situation, KWIM?
And he points out everyone elses' faults too. And I keep looking at him thinking "you judgemental prick". He makes things up about people and then puts them out like fact.
An example. The new mayor Phila. just put the brakes on a casino that the previous mayor had okayed. H says "that's just because HE hasn't gotten his share of the payoff yet." The other night the news had a thing about a football player hosting a charity benefit in his new house. To which H says "he didn't buy that house for any reason except to write of using it as charity. His foundation bought him that house. He didn't pay for it." Well, I said I'd like to hear him tell that 350 lb. linesman that to his face! But he asks "can you prove I'm not right?"
Not helpful at all when you get NO credit for what you HAVE done. This man has NEVER once said "thank you for giving me a second chance". Never ONCE said "I see you're trying." Never once ASKED me to stay. His apologies SUCK! I heard "I said I'm sorry, what do you want from me?" I'd tell him and he'd say "that's not what you really want" or he'd just PA avoid it.
So he tells me now he'll be patient, but not forever. I patiently waited out whatever it was bugging him for 10 years. And he can't give me time? He "played his game" as long has he felt like it until he said "enough". He had one foot out and one foot in for 10 years and I f'ng waited and looked forward and rationalized and loved him anyway.
I don't want this whole thing dumped in my lap. I don't want the control he keeps giving me. But if he's handing it over, then he has to do what I say. But instead he hands it over and then tells me I don't know what I'm doing with it.
I told another person that I feel like I'm giving CPR to a corpse. Maybe our M is dead, but I won't see it. Maybe this was a dealbreaker for me. Maybe if he'd been perfect I'd still feel this way.
FOO issues... abandonment. First my father, now my husband.
I'm going to look in the library for that book. I'm completely broke right now. And THAT bothers me too.
But, I am sort of feeling like 'well, you go first'. Kwim?
That's exactly what I told H.
When this first started, I gave him a list of what I wanted from him.... total honesty, full disclosure on whatever I wanted to know, cut off all ties to the "affair" crowd, a bunch of other ones. I'm going to find that list this week and when he says I haven't done everything I can, I'll show him what HE hasn't done yet.
My biggest hurdle here... that I'm believing what I read here, what everyone else tells me and I could be totally wrong. Because HE's the only one who knows the truth. And he hasn't said anything even close to it. He had no FOO issues, no esteem problems, no auto default to lying. HE won't come clean. That's my issue.
I'm not going to go forward building on my own reality. Been there, done that.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
Now I've got a question... BT, you said you'd done 15 different therapies, from EMDR to Imago, to reading, to meditation, etc.
I want to try something NEW, so what's wrong with that? What's wrong with going through the "Getting the Love you Want" workbook? Or going to Retrovaille? I'm willing to suspend our IC and MC to do this?
He says he's working hard... coming home, being accountable, going to IC, MC. That's working HARD to him. Well, I'm doing the same things, but I'm not putting in any effort? That really pissed me off.
We had a good weekend. The kid was home, we went to a wine tasting yesterday. I didn't have to cook a meal all weekend. So about 5 PM I say to him "how about some 'we have the house to ourselves, I have half a buzz on and there's nothing on tv sex?" (Fully explaining my motivations ) He says "not until I have some food in my stomach". So I go cut some cheese and crackers and nuts and fruit and we talk and watch the news. And NOTHING. About 9 he says "that wine really gave me a headache and I'm tired, going to bed." I ask if he wants me to come up too and he says "whatever."
So that's twice in 3 days I've been turned down.
Someone explain that?
No words, just hugs.
If I ask him he'll respond "What are you saying, that I'm not grateful enough for you?" Kind antagonistly. When all I've asked is "Are you grateful? Do you understand that I see this as a gift to you?"
I don't know any more. Just going to go clean some of the anger out now. Living room should be shining by the time he gets home!
Not helpful at all when you get NO credit for what you HAVE done. This man has NEVER once said "thank you for giving me a second chance". Never ONCE said "I see you're trying." Never once ASKED me to stay.
I'm sure that's really hurtful, weepy. Maybe if you try to change your mindset to where you're making those changes for you, and not for him or the marriage, you won't feel so angry that he doesn't appreciate them. Because really--it doesn't matter who appreciates you bettering yourself.
Just a suggestion. Really, weepy...I'm only trying to help. It's just hard to see you struggling so much...still. My hope is that you'll step off the treadmill (the treadmill being trying to get him to change) and start running on solid ground (changing yourself). The treadmill is keeping you in the same exact place.
Lost, girl!!! Look at you! Look how strong you've become! Let's remember where you were just a year ago. You've come so, so far, sweetie!
If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.
The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton
FSA - What happen this weekend? Why was it a disaster? Darn! Was hoping you guys would catch a break and have a great time. Loved your poem though.
Well, made it through Dday # 2 with only a few small tears shed. Thanks to those of you who posted your lovely thoughts and comments in my post in JFO. I woke up earlier than my H on Sat. morning and thought I would write something of hope for those just coming into this. Seeing all my dear friends from our little tribe here cheer me on brought tears to my eyes. Later, when my H woke up I read it to him. We both cried a little. It was really powerful to see where I was and then see where I am now two years later. It was hard for H to hear it summerized like that. Anyhow, that was as much significance as I gave the whole day. We went on to get ready for our dinner party that night and wound up having a blast! The martinis were flowing and H and I were secretly celebrating having made it. So I drank extra martinis! I've earned them damn-it! We made a turkey on the grill for dinner (LostH I know you asked a couple of days ago). This was the first month of our "dinners from around the world" group. Each month we'll be hosting a party with this same group of friends (they are a blast) where we pick a country and everyone brings a dish to pass from that country. We started with the good old USA with the traditional turkey dinner (the USA was picked because I had a turkey in my freezer taking up the whole freezer )Next month it will be Portugal. So if anyone has any good Portuguese recipes please send them to me!
So now I have the old pap test to look forward to this Thurs. for the HPV thing. Hopefully this time they won't lose my test results. I'm crossing my fingers everything will come out normal. I soooooo want this over with. It's more the emotional/psychologial weight than worrying about my health. I still feel like the whore is in our lives since she was kind enough to give the final gift that keeps on giving. BITCH!
OK, one last funny. Can someone please explain to me how a man who lied to his wife for almost six years while carrying on an A can't seem to make an excuse to a friend who called just after our guests arrived and tell her I wasn't available to talk? We didn't invite this couple to the dinner for many reasons I won't go into, but he didn't want to even say it was my family that was there or anything lest he hurt their feelings. So he hands me the phone and there I am having to carry a conversation while just getting hor dourves on and mixing martinis! WTF? How can they lie so well with the big stuff and for so long, but they become Abe-fucking-Lincoln when it comes to stuff like that! Geesh! OK, there's your laugh for the day. (((((to all)))))
I'll keep my fingers crossed for Thursday. How long after that do you get the results?
Without you I think all LTA BS are nuts for even trying with somebody that would CHOOSE to hurt us so much.
One question OTC. What were the big thought patterns in your H that you believe have changed?
Thanks again OTC!
One question OTC. What were the big thought patterns in your H that you believe have changed?
First, he woke up and saw how destructive his choices were. He came out of the "no one will ever find out" thought to "I have almost destroyed the woman I love and everything I havr". He also now sees how his FOO patterns of communication, beliefs and behaviours came into our M. He sees how he was working to overcome the emotional deficiencies from his FOO by acting out in specific ways in order to get a reaction from me. He sees how he wasn't getting his emotional needs met in an appropriate way and sees how the A was a fantasy between two needy people manipulating each other to get what they wanted. Now knows none of it was real in any way. Just a salve on a gaping wound. In addition he has done quite a bit of work on why the knight in shining armor bit was so appealing and has realized he doesn't need to save anyone or be the hero in order to be a valuable and meaningful person. He also now realizes he is WORTHY of my love and respect. That was a big one. Those are all that come to mind now Hefty but I'm sure there are more.
Go OTC! You are the (wo)man!
Theme dinner parties..what fun! The only portugeuse recipe I know requires Nandos sauces, so if you have a Nandos restaurant near you, give me a yell. This chicken recipe is dead easy and delicious!
When you do South Africa or India, then I have loads of recipes.
Speaking of chicken, your H ducking the phonecall! That must have been awkward.
Lost, girl!!! Look at you!
I was a huge mess one year ago, wasnt I? Now, its more like an organised mess.LOL.
HeftyS, you have to slow down. I know you want all this stuff to be done, but it takes time. There is so much for you to assimilate. So much for your WS too. You guys are doing great.
Whenever you want to talk it out, or just vent, theres bound to be someone here to listen.
The day is fairly early on your side, so go out and do something for yourself today. Just one thing. Even if its a sandwich in the park with a book.Come on!
(((whoever is struggling)))
I am not telling you to stop any of your therapies, or not to start new ones. I will be working on myself in one form or another for the rest of my life and think everyone should do the same.
All I am saying to you is that at some point you have to commit yourself to reconciliation if you actually want to reconcile fully. Not right after d-day and not for a good many months afterward, but at some point. And I'll tell you why -- because commitment promotes healing. And the fear of abandonment retards it.
If your marriage is a place of love and commitment and support, it makes it much easier for frightened people to make changes -- especially the big changes that will leave them vulnerable in ways they never have been before. If he always fears that you will leave him, he will be paralyzed by the fear that his next move will be wrong and you will leave.
You cannot reconcile and have a real intimate marriage if one partner always has one foot out of it. Can you have a genteel standoff where neither trusts the other and it is really each man for himself? Yes. But I didn't want that and I don't think you do either. That would be joining him in his old mindset rather than jointly finding a new one.
Now Weepy, I'm going to be blunt. You know I am not a fan of your husband's. I think he is disrespectful to you and rude and sometimes just downright mean. I don't like the things he says to you. I've written here several times that I'd like to slap him myself.
You, however, say you love him and want to stay with him. But only if he changes in the exact ways you dictate. I'm telling you that you at some point you have to look at him AS HE IS, and say one of three things:
1. "I will stay with you. The person you are is OK by me. Not that I won't be happy if you improve yourself. But you don't have to for me to love you and commit to you."
2. "I will stay with you because I see you moving in the right direction and I have faith in you and us that we will make the changes we need to to have a wonderful marriage."
Or 3. I can't live with you as you are and I want to get out.
Why do you have to make a decision at this point? Because I don't think either one of you will get any further if you don't.
Weepy, your H is ruled by his fears and so are you. But fear at that level is paralyzing. I know because I've been there. And yet, by your report, he is taking risks and making changes. He is doing it, Weepy. Perhaps not as fast or in the exact way that you would like, but he's doing it.
And he's telling you that your commitment to him will help him make the rest of the changes. It's up to you whether you give him that or not, but if you love the guy, why wouldn't you? Do you think it is somehow protecting yourself to be in the marriage without commitment? To be blunt, that kind of protection isn't worth shit. If you are living in the same house with him any mistake he makes is going to hurt you whether you have committed or not. Staying in the marriage but not committing is trying to live behind paper battlements and pretending they will stop cannon fire. It's just another form of denial. It can work in the early days, but not when you get to the real nitty gritty of intimacy.
Time to poop or get off the pot, Weepy. I really believe your H and all your many counselors are right. Time for you to pick your move and commit to it.
And, please Weepy listen to Run and do the co-dependency work and start focusing on you. If you stop worrying about the changes he needs to make and start worrying only about yours you will give both of you the space you need to heal. All of this indecision and fear comes from those fucking irrational, wrong-headed co-dependent cognitions. Search them out and stomp on them, please.
[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 12:11 PM, January 28th (Monday)]
Sounds like a wonderful party..exactly the proper way to celebrate......publicly having a great "normal" time with friends....and privately sharing that core celebration just between you both.
Your post in JFO WAS so poignant..glad your H got to hear it too.
(check your PM's)
You stand out here as the current lone male LTA BS.
Since there is little or, really nothing, in print about LTA post D-day management, let alone about the potential subtleties and differences of the WH vs. WW dynamic in LTA...let's speculate.
It is written that women get more attached to the emotions of the A......men more attached to the physicality of them.
With all the female BS feedback here in our corner, it is obvious that male WS in LTA also get attached to the long-term "convenience" and habit. When there is a willing OW who chooses to be the side-piece, physically....habit gets quite established. The ego stroking and EA component is dessert. (for those who figuratively "like or crave" dessert)
For a female WS of a A....the main course is usually the ego, the validation, the stroking of her self-identity....the sex may have been okay too, but wouldn't be as meaningful without the EA part.
Getting detached from the "habit" requires letting go of that which was the most compelling part of the LTA.
And women are not prone to let go of "emotional" "feel- goods" easily. So perhaps that is her biggest challange....and "have-to-do... for you to feel comfortable trying to R. Let her know that you are aware.
I am not sure where I am even going with this...but tossing it out for others to hopefully expand or clarify for you.
You do sound better though, hefty, from when you first posted.
Better in that in the midst of the god-awful heart strikes we all know so well.....you are looking at it all somewhat objectively, with some distance. Even if it still happens very infrequently YET....you ARE able to lift yourself from that pit of despair and inertia.
Remember, your journey is still in the first miles. The first part is all about getting used to the feelings and learning, literally, to pace yourself. Taking each day as it comes....and believing in tomorrow.
Let your W know what you need to see, to hear.....write it out if you must (I did) and let her read it alone. Give her some space to figure it out and learn what her "pacing" needs to be....for you.
And yes.....without risk, would there be any gains?
[This message edited by numb and scared at 12:32 PM, January 28th (Monday)]
All of this indecision and fear comes from those fucking irrational, wrong-headed co-dependent cognitions. Search them out and stomp on them, please.
OK, but can you just get him to shut up please!
I get that I have the "if I'm not perfect, he won't love me" issue. But then he reinforces it by pointing out every single damn thing I do that isn't "right" by his standards.
I don't approach him "right" for sex. I don't listen to him when he "tells" me what I should be doing.
Am I supposed to be fucking grateful that he didn't leave me for his POS? That's the impression I'm getting from him. But I also know he's not stupid... what kind of f'ng life would that have been? Certainly wouldn't be at dinner on Sundays with mom!
His expectations of me are too high. That's what I keep trying to tell him. He wants me to be the together, organized, strong, confident, handle everything woman I was. Oh, and be a slut for him at night.
He told me yesterday that he knows "you're never going back to work and if you do, it will be some dinky job for no money." WTF? I've been the bigger breadwinner in this family, no since I met him. Then we start discussing our bills and he gets all huffy because the severance check is still sitting in the dining room. Yeah, can't do anything with it until I do the FAFSA for DS. If I put it in the bank, then he gets no aid. But his words.... "I can't even invest the damn severance..." It's my fucking severance! I worked for it. I earned it.
You know what? With all my "faults" why the hell is HE still here? He says he loves me inspite of them, but damn if he doesn't HARP on them. The other day I heard that he left Texas ONLY because I wanted to. Completely discounting HIS friend who came down with the business proposition and waved the dollar signs in front of his face. Yeah, I wanted to come home and I told him I appreciated that he took that into account, but I never asked him to move back, never. He was a mind reader back then too apparently because he then said "but you would have whined and moaned every day for the rest of our life down there." Guess he should have married the born and bred Texas bimbo he screwed around with before I moved down there.
He never lets anyone forget how they have wronged him or what they've done wrong. Yet if we remind him of how he's wronged us... well, that's "different."
So what are my changes? Just not fearing he'll leave me. He could. He could have another affair. He could drop dead tomorrow. Take care of me? Sure, by my needs are few. I don't need pampering. Here's what I did for myself today... I cleaned out the veggie and fruit trays in the fridge and bought all new ones because I won't eat stuff if I'm not sure how old it is. And I read the Sunday paper with my tea. I cooked dinner for myself last night... steamed veggies and rice. H said "that's no dinner" and went off an cooked himself a tv dinner. And I didn't feel bad about it! Still don't. And that's HUGE for me.
So I'll go finish my wash and figure out dinner. OH yeah, I cleaned the living room by moving the mess into the dining room. At least the rug doesn't smell like a cross between a distillery (from a wine spill) and sick (DD didn't make it to the bathroom). I was calling it "eau de Sandy" in my head. Made me smile anyway.
Everybody. I appreciate you taking care of me this week. Maybe the meds are kicking in because I do feel better today (even with the rants).