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User Topic: Long Term Affairs V I I I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ukgirl, I think the issues H is talking about is my FOO issues and related (for eg self esteem)that I am tackling in IC. Yes, he did have a major part in most of them, so he is talking crap.

Shirley, we did have a talk about boundaries when he started with this client about 9 months ago. We went into incredible details covering meetings, lunches, coffeebreaks, working groups etc.
So ....


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostHeart - Sorry I haven't been around and missed all that you were going through these last 24 hours. How are you? You seem to be handling this last outburst by your H pretty well but as you said tomorrow could be another day. I hope he comes out of his snit before then so you can avoid any more pain and frustration.

It is so frustrating when they get defensive and arrogant and from personal experience and from what I've read on here too frequently, this is all too common. I think possibly their own frustrations with R and the healing process and just wanting the whole mess to be forgotten, swept under the rug, etc., builds in them and as a final blow, gets taken out on us. This is so infuriating and extremely unjust.

I agree with Shirley that I will never trust my H again and if that is what your H is thinking is going to happen, maybe he should read a few of our posts about that topic. I'll be happy to 2x4 him if he needs it. Trust a LTA H - no f---ing way! They lost that on their 1st d-day and if there were other d-days then any hope at all of trust is completely destroyed IMO. I will never again let my guard down. This doesn't mean that I walk around looking for signs of betrayal but I do listen more carefully, watch more closely and try to sense anything that might suggest we are headed down that road again.
Huge hugs to you. I am thinking of one of my H's favorite quotes which he always repeats in Latin (which ironically I now apply to him) - "Non illigitamus carborundum" translated means, "Don't let the bastard(s) grind you down."
I think this is quite appropriate for all of us BS's here, don't you?

[This message edited by forgivenotforget at 3:40 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:46 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am thinking out loud here,so bear with me.

I had a flash moment.
I think I know why I am so angry with H re. the depression issue, apart from the obvious, and the way he used it during the M.

He reminds me of my dad.
My F did/does that.
He carries on to the world like the most together, smartly dressed well-spoken,well-mannered gentleman...and to us his family, he is cheating, lying, abusing, weak weak weak man. He goes on about his effin depression too. Has been for years. Thats usually around the time when he has either done something stupid that mum found out, or feels he is not getting any attention.

I am equating H with my F.
And I am mixing their faults up, I think.
They have done so many things in common, have so many personality traits in common, but are so different I think.I dont know.

I hate weak abusing lying cheating men. I hate my father. So I guess I hate H too.I hate my F so much, that I have become somewhat indifferent to him. My sisters havent got to that stage yet..they still get wound up by him. I am just indifferent. When my mum passes, I dont see a reason for him to be in my life. He passes too. I tolerate and am polite to him and I joke with him, for mums sake, and because I am polite and tolerant to the Lollipop man too.Thats who i am.

Does H equate my F?
Do any of you hve this issue?
Will I end up hating H so much, that I will become indifferent?

I know this is not LTA related, so sorry you guys.
I just needed to write it out and see here for myself.And also wanted to know what you think.

I sure am fucked, arent I?
***
H is sleeping. I took a sleeping pill and will join the girls again. Guess this isnt going to be sorted tonight after all.

End of thread hogging.

Goodnight all.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Fnf. Just caught you now.

Dont let the bastard grind you down!!!

Never again Fnf. Never again!


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH - I know there is a psychological theory out there that suggests that we tend to marry a person similar to the parent we have they most conflict with. My mother had always been emotionally unavailable when I was younger. I married a man who has always been this way until he decided he wanted to R. Now he is much more open. (So is my Mom as a matter of fact but this took years for her to be more open and affectionate.)
Maybe others can elaborate on this since I don't have any reference but it is a psychological theory and probably easy to look into.
Anybody else have info on this that might help LH?
So there could be something in what you are saying and possibly carrying over into your relationship with your H. Worth discussing with your IC in your next session.
(((LH))) Sleep tight.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 4:03 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH, I know you've toddled off to bed, but I wanted to address your F issue.

Does H equate my F?
Do any of you hve this issue?

Big time. My father cheated on my mother, for who knows how long. I don't think it was an LTA probably just a few months old when it was exposed, but they were in "lurv" by the time we all found out. Actually, I think it was more SHE wanted a steady guy/income/father and he was of the generation that if you f'd someone, you married them.

Anywho, yes, my H was well aware, it happened right around the time we got engaged, we discussed it ad infinitum. H decried my father's treatment of my mother as horrendous. Barely spoke to him the rest of his life... all the time my then BF was cheating on me,

So twofaced a little? I had just, and I mean JUST forgiven my father to the point of indifference a few months before DDay. It stirred everything up.

My father was a big "I"m a great guy, honorable, always right" and my H is the same way. Scarey sometimes. Boy he hated it when I compared him to F in MC. But how can he deny the resemblance?

I don't know if I'll ever look at my H the same way, ever. As much as he's tried, changed, he still holds back, still makes comments about how he's so damn honorable now (but to him the past is past). Boils my blood sometimes.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 4:19 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost Heart - In case you are still awake and reading. There is a great book that addresses the issue you raise exactly. It is called "Getting the Love You Want" by Harvill Hendrix. I believe either OTC or Run recommended it months ago (sorry, I can't remember who recommended it but I did buy it and read it ). I don't have it on me but the theory is sort of this:

You marry the person that 1) is the most like the person that you had issues with growing up so that you can work out those issues with them and become a happier better person (too bad that doesn't work out sometimes and 2) you marry someone who challenges YOU to fix something within yourself. If you don't mind, it sounds very much like you have both going on right now. If you have any spare time, this book might make for a good read.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Weepy, sent you a PM.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In Harville Hendrix's book "Getting the Love You Want" he talks about this issue.

But no matter what their conscious intentions, post people are attracted to mates who have their caretakers' positive and negative traits, typically, the negative traits are more influential.

The part of your brain that directed your search for a mate, however, was not your logical, orderly new brain; it was your time-locked myopic old brain. And what your old brain was trying to do was re-create the conditions of your upbringing, in order to correct them. Having received enough nurturing to survive but not enough to feel satisfied, it was attemptiong to return to the scene of your original frustration so that you could resolve your unfinished business.

I've read somewhere else (couldn't find where) that we will pick someone like the parent who created the most trauma within us in order to "relive" it and "get it right" with them. For example, if you feel you lost your father because he cheated and ran off with an OW, you may pick a husband who is similar to your father in hopes of getting him to "choose" you instead of abandoning you for something "better".

Does this make sense?


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HA! Hey shirley we posted this at the same time.

Great minds think alike, huh?


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 4:48 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK, sorry to be a threadhog here.

Hefty, I just read your wife's post in Wayward. I'm not being judgmental here, but I am going to say that I do feel you've been a little deceptive. You've left out a big part of your story--of which you were a part of--and I'm feeling a little apprehensive about that.

I don't mean to slam your sex life, or practices or whatever--that isn't my intention. But I guess what I'm saying is that you also made a choice to be intimate with another person--even if it DID include your wife.

Help me to reconcile this. Do you feel it was ok because she did it with you? Tell me where your thoughts are on this.

I would like to know why you would come here and purge all of the information about what has happened to you EXCEPT this one piece?

Again, I mean no judgment here, I just feel like you left that out on purpose so you didn't look bad to us.

edited to add: I'm not trying to attack you hefty. Hang around here long enough and you'll see that not only are we supportive of each other here, but we also call each other on our sh** and give 2X4s when needed.

[This message edited by runoverbytruck at 4:53 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 5:06 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Giant Post as I try to get caught up: (in reverse order)

Weepy – I am probably the worst detective in the world but this is what I would suggest. One, keep the bag and the receipt. Two, try like hell to find the other card and, when you do, take a photo of it up close and in its location then leave it there. Three, wait to see if you get the card or not. If you do, awesome, be happy, give him a hug. If you don’t, ask him about the receipt. If he hedges, show him your card, the receipt and the bag. If he says he doesn’t know what happened to it, show him the photo of where it was and ask him where it is now. Wish I could come help you roll the place!

UKgirl – sorry I missed the chance to wish your mom well – how is she? How is your dad? Oh and “Staff of Life” are you fucking kidding me???

Hefty – I still read on JFO a lot since I still consider myself a newbie. Anyway, your W sounds like a classic case of an unremorseful, still in the fog, WS. She needs to be remorseful not just every day but every fucking nanosecond of every second of every minute of every hour of every day. Anything less = unacceptable. That is how they learn to own their shit. They have to see it, smell it, sit in it and realize that they made it. I honestly believe that all WS are avoiders at some level and what she wants to do is avoid. Avoiding is not fixing, it is sweeping it under the rug where it eats away at everybody and does not heal. You cannot control her behavior but you have complete control over yours. If she is not willing to be remorseful, you have a choice. Go on through life with a non-remorseful, broken spouse who could very well fall into the same behavior again. Or, take a stand for you and declare your boundaries and what you will and will not accept in your life. THIS you have complete control over.

So Lost – Ummm….can you slip it in his dinner? I don’t know what to say other than he probably feels some level of guilt that makes him not want to initiate. My H says he is scared to death of being the initiator and, quite frankly, I am still at a place that I want to decide when. Matter of fact, am sort of enjoying it. I know it is a self-esteem blow to always initiate but keep at it, tell him that you want him and encourage him to step forward. Hopefully, over time he will learn that he isn’t hurting you by asking.(((hugs)))

NMS/NAS – great idea!!! Do we get to have our pics on the jacket???? I've always wanted to be a celebrity although maybe not for this...


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 5:22 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am a classic case of marrying my father and my fatehr is the biggest ass on the planet! No suprises there!

Thanks for all the sex suggestions. I am trying to decide to say something about taking a pill. His ED is completely related to diabetes. Has had it for years. Had it with her quite a bit as well as with me. He hasn't taken care of himself so it is a natural progression. Not sure what the not initiating is about. It's such a sensitive subject for me self esteem wise.

I feel so much better after we do. I may ask when he thinks we'll try the new pills out and see what he says. I jut don't want to be crushed, you know?


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 7:21 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost H, I think you're onto a whole new awareness for yourself. We have done a lot of work with our MC around this particular subject and have gotten very clear about the represenations each of us brought to the other regarding our parents. My mother was emotionally unavailable, controlling, passive aggressive and secretive. In addition she medicated her depression with alcohol and was alcoholic. I was always chasing my mother's love and fighting against her control. My H was a perfect proxy to "make things right" demonstrating the same patterns of behavior.

I, on the other hand, was a perfect proxy for his abusive father who he could never please, was never enough and who shamed and berated him constantly. I hate to admit it, but after a lot of MC and IC I did the same to him as I had acquired my mother's model of controlling behavior and shaming words. His father was also physically and emotionally abusive. He had wild mood swings, was alcoholic and confused H by being very sweet and generous at odd times. I showed those moments of sweetness and generosity enough to keep the same pattern up with my H and I perpetuated the shaming/berating H wanted to "make right". This was SOOOO hard to get through in MC in the beginning because he was closed up in the beginning, still emotionally unavailable and I was wanting to be controlling and shame him for what he'd done. Fortunately our MC really stayed on track with putting our FOO patterns in our faces versus getting side tracked on the ugliness of the A. This was the last thing I felt I needed. Yet another therapy session about my fucking mother! I had been in therapy all my life. But thankfully, the A made it real for me in a way where I could not only see it and intellectualize it as I always had. This time I was FEELING the pain my mother inflicted on me and it was all meshing with the pain I felt from the A at the same time. I still wonder how I lived through it. It was the worst hell I have ever known in my life. But both of us being committed to understanding this and working very hard to end the destructive patterns, or "the dance" as I like to call it, is a big reason why we are where we are today in our R. It was hard as hell to not grind his ass into the ground and finish him off over this A. I had the emnotional and intellectual means to do it. But I saw it clearly from the beginning of MC this is what got us here on my part. He had his own shit to own in the cause of the M breakdown. So much of what we learned in MC over time was all the stuff he spewed out about why he strayed and what brought him to the A to me on dday. It just had no FOO context. And him understanding the pain I lived through growing up and understanding how it shaped my behavior with him and vice versa brought us both to seeing one another in a completely different way. Anyhow, that's a looooong answer to the question or the observation you threw out.


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
heftysmurf
♂ Member
Member # 17080
Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

runoverbytruck -

I felt odd about the way I found out because that is not me. That is the only time in my life I EVER did anything like that. That day was the oddest and a very bad day in my life. The whole way I found out was wacked beyond belief. My wife and her friend instigated the whole thing. I did not at all. I had not touched another woman in 13 years. I know most would be like Man's fantasy. Not me. Felt weird. They started doing things and I joined. I did not go first. I felt so weird seeing I had been with no one else in so long and never with two women. That turned on my spidey sense. It seemed as my wife did this TOO easily. 13 years and you can easily start something and instigate this? Then when I payed attention to the OW in this wife was upset. I never had intercourse with OW. That seemed to upset my wife which I feel is so ironic. What was SHE doing? I felt bad for 3 days after and even cried never wishing it happened. Then I installed the keylogger and busted my wife. I actually had blind trust till than.

The other odd thing is I asked at several pts during our marriage asked are you cheating on me" she said no and I believed her. That is NOT a natural question to ask. I feel like a fool.

I am glad for that day for one reason. It woke me up to the truth.

hurtshirley -

You are right if she never shows real remorse I am way too likely to get betrayed again. She will not admit but I feel as it she want to "sweep it under the rug". She has for 3 weeks been truthful but still angry and aprehensive and has a hard time answering questions face to face. She messed up our lives and our daughters and her friends and on the surface most the time walks around as if nothing happened. Today she said some kind words but I will need them and actions for 280 weeks plus = the length of the affair.

It felt good and nobody knew were two things she said that kill me. So it is OK to do things if they are good for you and harm others? Things are OK because nobody knows? What if I did things you did not know about? They are OK I guess. I am not like that as I could never live with myself. Well I KNOW NOW and am hurt beyond hurt because of it.

The biggest barrier to us making it. Her anger. She gets angry when I cry. What the hell is that? I do not understand at all. A hug would be oh so much more effective.

I can only control my own actions. Thing that sucks is my main emotions is not even anger. It is profound sadness. I have a hard time enjoying anything I used to like. I have made strides in learning from this and bettering myself but wear a veil of sadness at all times.

To me it has been 3 weeks. I hope to make it to the May 1st deadline to see her owning her stuff. She gets it maybe slightly now. If she does not "get it" completely and understand the destruction she caused we may be over. She should feel damn bad about what she did. It is THAT BAD. I am ready for separation. It is not what I want but if she never gets it she will do it again. I will NEVER leave myself open to that again forever.

Some of her actions today make me hopeful. She is in IC, has FINALLY started following the contract, and said sorry and gave me hug unsolicted today. She has lot of work to go and I believe she can do it. Just waiting out the fog hurts like hell. Everyday she does nothing I go down a notch. Everyday she does a little it stays at the same notch. If she does some big stuff it will go the other way. It is up to her actions. I am here waiting. Maybe today was a start?

I pray to God nightly something I never did before that she "get's it" and we can save our marriage for our daughters sake.

[This message edited by heftysmurf at 7:40 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday)]


BH-Me- 34 WW-Her- 29
D-Day- 11-04-07
M 6 years Together 12 years
2 YR DD WOW I love her!
LTA 6 YEARS - stolen time
Limbo. Praying for DD and our M.
In ridiculous pain. Amazed I can stand.

Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: New York
no mor surprises
♀ Member
Member # 7678
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello All,

There is so much going on and I do send prayers to each of you who are hurting. I see that you are getting excellent advice so I have not chimed in. But know that I am thinking of you.


On a lighter note

I think we will put hurtshirley's picture on the cover of the book. She can be the lta b.s. posterchild.


Posts: 1768 | Registered: Jul 2005
heftyswife
♀ New Member
Member # 17847
Default  Posted: 8:22 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hefty - When we had the threesome with OP insigated it. She is a very flirtatious person and that is easy to see.
However when we got back home from the bar and I was laying on the floor u and her attacked me, then we went into our room and SHE was mindful of me however YOU did not look at me once or touch me.
Yes after I told you how I felt about it I was hurt however I have hurt u in the worst way possible however it hurt me. Told you about it.


ME-WS 29
BS - 34
Together - 13 yrs.
M 6 yrs
1 Child - 2
LTA 6 YEARS

Posts: 50 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: NY
heftysmurf
♂ Member
Member # 17080
Default  Posted: 8:28 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The hurt does not even compare!


BH-Me- 34 WW-Her- 29
D-Day- 11-04-07
M 6 years Together 12 years
2 YR DD WOW I love her!
LTA 6 YEARS - stolen time
Limbo. Praying for DD and our M.
In ridiculous pain. Amazed I can stand.

Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: New York
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 9:14 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Hefty and wife))))

Obviously there is a lot of hurt here on both sides. The fact that you guys are talking about it and getting it out in the open is a first step towards hopefully healing.

Hang in there. Respectfully to Hefty's wife, there really is a unique aspect to the hurt and healing from a LTA. Anyone in this group will tell you that. It's a long and painful process for all involved.

Hugs,
HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 9:19 PM, January 23rd (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ummmmmmmmmm........

Listen guys...I'm pretty sure you could get into trouble if a mod saw you hashing it out in here.

Hefty, thank you for addressing this. I am very protective of our little group here. I just didn't want to see anyone "duped". We've had enough of that already. Even on this site! One of our dear LTA member's H's OW actually POSED as a BS and posted with us! (Still unbelievable to me. <<shaking head>>) And I'm a l-i-t-t-l-e untrusting anyway these days.

So. Anyway....

Cowgirl, once again, I could have written your post. Almost, anyway--give or take a few minor details.

Of course, I'm reading a book right now (I know you're shocked ) that addresses the kinds of conflicts we had as a couple (if they were productive or unproductive, etc.) and whether or not they drew us closer together, or drove us further apart and created an atmosphere of lonliness for them that lead to the infidelity. Interesting stuff. Very sad, but interesting.

It always makes me hurt to think of the "If only's". Such a waste of a lot of time that led to a lot of pain.

If we only knew then what we know now.........


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


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