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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs V I I I
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you Shirley.
I am acutely aware that I wouldnt be here without this site.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 6:22 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No Mor surprises, thank you. That is so helpful. It's true. Wh is great right now in this moment. I am just having a hard tiem dealing with finding out about all teh crap he did previously.

Ow contacted him again. We talked last night again about NC letter adn both of us were on the fence as to what to write, how to do it. I still wasn't sure I even felt like we should.

I admit I checked his email adn saw it but said nothing. He told me teh second he saw it on email, so that made me feel good. It just said

I'm sorry about the other night, i guess you coudl tell I wasn't myself. I wish I could just move on the way you seem to have.

It helps solidify my belief that he hasn't talked to her.

He would haev written back anything I wanted. I told him something and he wrote it but when I asked what he would write, he just said he woudln't have been so curt. I wanted it to come from him. It was tense for a couple minutes with us. The one thing I made him omit was the I'm sorry about it all part. I just couyldn't have him say that to her as well.

So he wrote (on his own with my approval).

Yeah, I could tell you were drunk or headed that way. The fact of the matter is, I love Kat and wish to stay with her. So please don't try and contact me anymore. WS.

I was pretty happy with that, once he deleted the I'm sorry part.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 6:41 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

First off, So Lost, what is done is done and you can't undo it. But your H needs to stop the contact. When she does this--makes ANY kind of contact, you need to NOT RESPOND. It doesn't matter what she thinks. Giving her ANYTHING gives her EVERYTHING. She was looking for a response, and she got one. You guys gave her exactly what she wanted. These women will not go away as long as you keep throwing them a bone.

She's nothing. Treat her as such.

If she will not stop--send a very formal NC letter (from an attorney if you can) telling her if she does it again, you are taking legal action. Period.


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 7:04 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would jump in (The Rescuer)and try to help, by doing things like cutting him slack in the home, taking over what chores he had etc. He of course, let me, and used this to withdraw from the family and me. I would then do more, but as time went, I would start resenting him, and my anger and frustration would grow, because I would see that he wasnt interested in helping himself. He would make token gestures like going to the GP appt I made, but wouldnt follow up on the GP's advice.
This would escalate to a stage where I would snap, and breakdown, and he would accuse me of taking over his life and being controlling etc.

Lost, have you read any books on codependence? If not...do. This is classic codependent behavior.

From "Codependent No More":

CARETAKING

Codependents may:

- think and feel responsible for other people--for other people's feelings, thougths, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
- feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
- feel compelled--almost forced--to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
- feel angry when their help isn't effective.
- anticipate other people's needs.
- wodner why others don't do the same for them.
- find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing themselves.
- not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
- try to please others instead of themselves.
- find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves.
- feel safest when giving.
- feel insecure or guilty when somebody gives to them.
- feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
- find themselves attracted to needy people.
- find needy people attracted to them.
- feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
- abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
- overcommit themselves.
- feel harried and pressured.
- believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
- blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
- say other pople make the codependents feel the way they do.
- believe other people are making them crazy.
- feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
- find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.

Another characteristic is that you get frustrated and angry when you realize you've done "all this stuff" for them.

There are many other sections that have many other descriptions, but this particular one suited the situation for taking care of him/his depression. I know you're working on putting you first, but if you haven't read the book, it may help to open your eyes more to alot of behaviors.

With my H, I think the procrastination is part of the systemic problem that allowed the A to happen. What I mean, my H grew up hearing he was a failure, would not succeed, etc. His instinctive reaction then is just to not try- i.e. avoid. This carried over into our M. But his fragile ego couldn't take me voicing my needs (he saw it as criticims)and thus his self-esteem further plummeted and part of his escape to fill the void within himself was the A. The avoidance in your H probably has some longstanding root there, too, and takes a lot of work to un-do.

Absolutely. And I believe in my heart that my H's affair lasted as long as it did BECAUSE of his issues with procrastination. If he doesn't WANT to do something or isn't sure HOW to go about it, he just waits it out--maybe it will go away.

HB – ditto – the avoideance thing needs to be seriously addressed in IC. It is not cute or funny. The root cause is the avoidance of all potential failure. Those of us who are psychologically healthy know that this is IMPOSSIBLE in the real world. The only place where no failure can happen is fantasy land. These men have to accept this, grow up and learn to accept responsibility for their actions – both success and failure. The longer they try to avoid and hide from their responsibilities, the longer it will take them to heal. However, you are right that this will be a life long process for them to recover from the early damage and to keep from falling back into the earlier learned behavior.

This is why the affair was so appealing. They couldn't fail in their fantasy. And when the OW started putting pressure on him, criticizing him for not leaving when he said he would--it started not being so fun, and that's when he began "trying to end it".

Ugly cycle. And yes, SERIOUS IC work needs to happen. I just get very sick thinking about how much therapy they will be need to overcome this. How old will I be?


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 7:26 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Runoverbyatruck, well, he wasn't going to respond. I wanted to. I felt like the words "do not contact me" needed to be said.

Granted, he talked to her once since dday and told her he was staying with me and it was over. But she has contacted us twice since then (VM on friday and then email sent Tuesday). So even though he has really had no contact with her since her unavoidable phone call at his work, I wanted him to be very clear that he did not want her to call anymore.

I feel good about it. I feel good about everything he has told me. It all matches up form what I can see. For my own peace of mind I needed NC written formally. So he did that. I think it was a really good step.

So we talked abotu it adn from now on he does not respond. VM gets deleted (I have the option of listening to it), emails do not get responded to. If she calls at work (he often has no choice but to pick up) then he will hang up.

edited for my autrocious typing skills.

[This message edited by So Lost at 7:27 PM, January 17th (Thursday)]


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
heftysmurf
♂ Member
Member # 17080
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So lost - Thank you so much for sharing your story. Hit me where I needed to be hit. It is so hard when I devoted my life to her. I think I am in the same boat you were. I am getting better about making myself the best Smurf I can be but WOW is it hard. Totally different way of thinking.

RunOver - I appreciate the passage from the book greatly. I probably am nailed on 70% of those items. Now I struggle with change.

Wow having a heavy crying moment right now

[This message edited by heftysmurf at 8:31 PM, January 17th (Thursday)]


BH-Me- 34 WW-Her- 29
D-Day- 11-04-07
M 6 years Together 12 years
2 YR DD WOW I love her!
LTA 6 YEARS - stolen time
Limbo. Praying for DD and our M.
In ridiculous pain. Amazed I can stand.

Posts: 471 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: New York
hearbroken
Member
Member # 8317
Default  Posted: 8:53 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hefty,
I
am getting better about making myself the best Smurf

An LTA like no other motive causes us to re-examine who & what we are. But your little smurfette is a HUGE reason for you to strive to be the best you can be in spite of the LTA or no matter what happens with your M.

I can "feel" the rawness of your pain. Please know that in the days and years ahead the intensity of the pain will lessen. Getting through the shock and the initial trauma is gut-wrenching, as any of our LTA group can verify. Good for you for connecting. Your spouse has a lot of work to do to make things right with your M, too. It has to be a joint project. Set your boundaries up front for what YOU need to really R. Not a half-attempt at R. But to really survive this in the long haul and have a M that is a good model for your child, think about what has to happen on both ends. And make it crystal clear to your FWW.

Huge hugs, friend, huge hugs...

And hugs to all who are suffering, and Zanny if you are reading

HB


Dday1 8/05 (LTA)
Dday2 4/09 (online EA 2 weeks then confessed)
Dday 3 8/10 ("full disclosure" of more infidelity prior to 2009)

Posts: 869 | Registered: Sep 2005
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Runoverbyatruck, well, he wasn't going to respond. I wanted to.

I completely understand this, So Lost. There were so many things early on that I wanted to say to OW or (more importantly at the time) have OW hear him say. But as time went on, and I made my way further and further through this journey, the OW's significance became less and less. Yes, she is an easy target to slash with words on here (and make no mistake, it is VERY therapeutic to do so because..........well because she's a whore! And she sleeps with married men! ) but what she believes or thinks she knows became less and less important to me as I began to realize that she could have been any whore. As long as she did the things she did, (stroked his fragile ego and provided a "hole") she could have been A-N-Y insignicant O-N-E. What is even better than realizing that ourselves is when our H's realize it too! And that's why I said a few pages back that they could be faceless, or all wear the same face. It just doesn't matter. They're all cut of the same cloth in that they will. If our H's weren't broken and screwed up, they wouldn't even exist to us. And the healthiest thing for us all is to get them back to a place where they don't exist to us. Because they just...don't...matter. We get them there by not responding to their desperate attempts to "win". We make them nothing.

Because they are nothings.

That's all I meant. But I have seen on SI time and time again, that if you continue to respond--even a little--you can pretty much count on more contact. Remember that they live for crumbs. They always did. They've survived on those crumbs for years--parasiting off our lives.

So we talked abotu it adn from now on he does not respond.

That's what I'm talking about, So Lost! Right there. No more. Game over, OW. Buh-bye.

I appreciate the passage from the book greatly. I probably am nailed on 70% of those items.

Hefty, there's WAY more stuff too. You should look into it. Pages and pages of descriptions. I just didn't want to type it all. Not only are there descriptions of codependent caretakers, there are descriptions for Low Self-Worth, Repression, Obsession, Controlling, Denial, Dependency, Poor Communication, Weak Boundaries, Lack of Trust, Anger, Sex Problems, and other codependents. I was amazed at what I saw. Who would of thought I was codependent??? I've got control over my life!


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((So Lost,))))

Please believe what run is saying about the OW. And also believe her (and the rest of us) that this realization of how worthless these POS's are did not come easily or overnight for run, or for any of us..
But come it did and it will for you too.

Because the OW is not worth the air she breathes..and surely not worth one more SECOND of airtime in your life...or your H's.

These POS OW really DO live on, and for...CRUMBS...leftovers....entrails.
For God sakes, they chose to be side-humps for YEARS....hiding like roaches or rats under the dumpster.

Jerry Springer would have second thoughts about booking them......

She deserves NOTHING from you..NOTHING. Other than a court order if she really pushes it.

Now back to what IS important...YOU.

You and your world....where tomorrow is where we all wind up, no matter what today was like.

Hugs......


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

this realization of how worthless these POS's are did not come easily or overnight for run

THAT'S an understatement!!!

(And for the record...for anyone who is keeping tabs...I DO still hate her. For now. But my goal is total indifference. )


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, January 17th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(And for the record...for anyone who is keeping tabs...I DO still hate her. For now. But my goal is total indifference. )

Nothing wrong with that, run.

I now hate the "void"....the "zero"...that used to be the parking lot BJ queen.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:16 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good morning all.
So how is everyone getting on with their health goals for the week?

ROBT,
Thanks for taking the time to post that.
I figured out last year in IC and with you guys help, that I am a classic codependent.ME...the Miss I-can-do-it-all-by-myself-dont-need-anyone-else-thanks.

Reading the list again today gave me a few ouch moments.
But its true..well most of them.

I am trying to re-programme myself. But yikes, theres so much to do. And then I look at H's stuff, and it all seems insurmountable you know?

I can picture our lives 5 years from now. Not perfect but pretty good. I know I can get there. I will do what I need to do.But I am terrified that H will fuck it up... again.Maybe with another A, or his FOO issues, or his health.
And he just cant ruin my picture dammit!
Oi, did I just say that?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 3:31 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess the situation with OW was a bit different for me. She was his first love and fiancée. When I first found out, WH kept up the texts to her (a dozen or more a day) until I went hysterical at him. He said I didn’t know what she was capable of. My reply was HER, I could deal with, HIM and his f*cking lies, I couldn’t. After 6wks or so, she couldn’t stand it anymore and turned up on the doorstep. Legal NC letter followed. Then I contacted her b/c I knew FWH was lying to me. We texted and eventually spoke. She was crying. I stayed in control (typical!). Eventually, after 4mths, we met up at a hotel and I showed her a few documents on my computer. They were the “love letter” her wrote to me, with later additions showing his increasing anxiety, the long Q&A document (which really hurt her and was calculated to) and a despairing, grief-stricken and heart-rending letter that I wrote to him (after I found explicit poetry about her/them) which ended up with me asking him to leave. We were together for 3hrs. The purpose of meeting her in person was to show her that I was/am A NICE PERSON who didn’t deserve this pain and that FWH was not being hurt by her continued presence, I was. I told her that I understood why she had her affair with him and that I laid the blame for all this devastation firmly with him. After a couple of days, she texted and asked for copies of the doc’s by email. I phoned her and told her they were deleted and hard copies burned (I lied). I also told her that I had told his parents, so no there was no reason for him to stay with me out of a sense of duty. I said I hoped she could now get on with her life without him. She replied that this was goodbye then. I said yes. She said if circumstances had been different, we would probably be friends. And the odd thing is, we probably would.

Hence my lack of venting at OW. But, SoLost, any communication must stop. The others are right, they live on the smallest scraps. OW in our case was even willing to prolong texting and contacting me to be “nearer” to him. I knew that, but just used it to my advantage.

LostH, maybe that’s the answer. Look to see where we might be in a year and in five years time. Although I still have trouble looking to the end of next week!!

[This message edited by UKgirl at 7:06 AM, January 18th (Friday)]


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 7:09 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LH (and by the way, I was not just being kind about you),

I think the list ROBT--BTW, every time I see that, I think, who the hell is Robert?--posted is a great thing. I know I want to shy away from how many of my own traits I recognize there.

I read your post last night and was thinking about it when I was running all over the place this morning and somehow or other I kept coming back to thinking about my dog. He's the most loved, overcared for dog in the universe, but being a dog, it's never quite enough for him. And he knows that by turning those "I'm-just-a-poor-starving-neglected-puppy" eyes on us, he can get more. More attention, more playing, more walking, more belly scratching, more little forbidden tidbits of food. It's not manipulative on his part, it's adaptive, because the more he draws us in the more his safety and well-being is assured. And we seem programmed to react to that, a bit the way we are with babies.

Anyway, I was wondering if your H's depression is a little like that. Not that he's faking it, but that it serves almost like an adaptive mechanism to keep your M on a track he's comfortable with. You're making changes, really thinking, expecting him to be accountable, and this is a way to steer you back into a more predictable role and because of your long history and who you are, you're programmed to react.

Or is that completely out there?

((LTAers))

[This message edited by brooke4 at 7:12 AM, January 18th (Friday)]


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
brooke4
♀ Member
Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 7:29 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Going from never posting to board hogging, I just posted about a trigger in the R forum, since it seemed more like an R issue than an LTA one, but would appreciate any and all wisdom.

Thanks.


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1483 | Registered: Feb 2007
So Lost
♀ Member
Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 7:46 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel a bit confused. I don't know. At first everyone was tlling me to send a NC letter. I didn't relly want to haev any contact with ehr again, but after hearing it over and over I thought maybe we shoudl spell it out for her. Wh thought the Vm was days ago, don't bait her to contact again. So when she emailed, I thought it was the perfect opportunity to send an email saying no contact.

No I fel like we shouln't haev responded. I am soooo confused. I feel like we did th eright thing, but I also feel like I am getting such conflicting advise.

This was it. This was the NC letter. This means no more talking or even thiking about talking.

Something occurred to me last night and I talked to wh. I imagine he was upset by the VM adn the email. He said the VM really shook him up. He wasn't expecting to get it. So I think that explains why he was so defensive. He has done nothing else (other than erase the damn thing) to make me think it says anything it shoudn't have. And he email confirms that for me.

I feel like we are making our way. It's a freakin hard way, but I think maybe we'll make it. Wh says to keep being positive until it comes true, that we can do it.

Off to IC!


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So Lost,

Sorry...I had assumed that part of your dilemma was what to do about responding.

After the "deleted" VM, suggestions were made to not offer her anything other than a NC letter.
But she then VM'ed again and it seemed like a new problem.

You are right..an NC letter should close the door.
Glad you and H are working it out.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 8:45 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Brooke
Or is that completely out there?

No it isnt.It does make sense, and would fall into one of the patterns that was intrinsic to our M.

I wish I could just leave him to it. Let him sort out his issues, whilst I sort out mine. But I dont trust him. If we were D'd, then that would be easy. But since we are not, its almost like he is holding our future hostage, and I have to be the negotiator.

Sometimes, I wish I could tell him to just fuck off out of our lives.

SoL, you and H have done your bit now. If she does break NC, ignore her. Can he not block her calls and emails?
I am glad that you and H are communicating, and can see some progress. In the LTA R land, sometimes the big picture can feel so overwhelming, so its good to acknowledge any postive steps.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 8:50 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I am terrified that H will fuck it up... again.

Lost, this is where YOUR changes will come into effect. You will be able to handle it if he does. In fact, your health and well-being will be so important to you once you're healed that you will guard it with your life so you never lose it again. You will know if it happens that you will be fine.

So Lost, I don't mean to send confusing messages. Yes, he should make NC very clear. This is what bothers me:

Yeah, I could tell you were drunk or headed that way. The fact of the matter is, I love Kat and wish to stay with her. So please don't try and contact me anymore. WS.

It's very casual. Almost asking for a reply (and NO, I'm not saying HE was asking for a reply--just that she may take it that way). These things really are more effective with clear, concise, direct instructions. No frills. "Do not contact again. Doing so will result in a restraining order", etc. There is no need to caretake her feelings or explain his decision because she doesn't matter. I know you had said that YOUR response was harsher. And you did a very GOOD thing by removing the "I'm sorry."

But it's done. So it's the NC you've got. No worries. IF you are faced with the need to instruct her again, take all the niceties completely out. Curt, to the point. No encouragement. And then follow through with whatever consequence you give. The goal is to make her nothing.

All I was saying is that you shouldn't respond to every attempt she makes because it encourages her to keep trying. They don't really care what KIND of contact they have, as long as they HAVE it. And UK was right on when she said her H's OW would contact HER just to feel closer to him. They're f**ked up like that.

It's ok. You're ok. Forward movement. It's all good.


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, January 18th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BTW, every time I see that, I think, who the hell is Robert?

brooke, I do the same thing!!!


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
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