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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs -V I I
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i think the WS needles the BS so we get frustrated then the WS feels justified contacting the superficial, sweet talking and always understanding OW.

We’re all relating to this one!!

I can remember about five months before the A ended and I was still in the dark, he spent some time at OW’s house (four or five days) while her H was away so they could “live as man and wife” (her quote). He had told me he was away on business followed by a golfing corporate weekend (he had said that he was playing at K*S* which is about four miles from her house). He came home and his mood got worse as the days went by. Guilt, guilt, guilt. I know that now. I put up with it for so long and then packed a bag and stayed for a few days with 4xM friend at the coast She put a pertinent question to me. Never mind about the kids, it was not about them she was sure. The question I had to ask myself was did I love my H? I thought long and hard and just said “I don’t know”. That’s how bad he was. He was trying to make me dislike him so he could justify what he was doing and do the “my wife doesn’t understand me” bit. Yet I was the one holding his life together. Lie, shame, guilt. Prat.

There were also a few occasions I remember when I was dishing up dinner. He came in and said he didn’t want what I was serving, or he wasn’t hungry, or he didn’t want to eat with the boys, or whatever. I just used to shrug, I had got used to him trying to pick a fight over nothing. He says he squirms and cringes inside when he is reminded of those times.

His compartmentalising wasn’t working anymore.


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 11:54 AM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That is why I also think....

R after a LTA is a life-long process.

This should and needs to be the "mission statement" for all IC/MC's to give to couples dealing with R from LTA's.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



Posts: 3958 | Registered: Feb 2006 | From:
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 11:58 AM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And then our MC also explained that the dynamic in our particular relationship was the more I react the more he does NOT react, thereby causing my to react even further. Our dynamic was way out of balance. But this behavior is so deeply engrained in our spouses, IMHO, that it is very difficult to change. And difficult to change our reactions. That is why I also think R after a LTA is a life-long process.
Absolutely HB! Your statement of "the more I react the more he does NOT react, thereby causing my to react even further" was SOOOOO true in our case too. This was the dance we always danced and set us into constant and perpetual competition. There are so many times that I feel his A was him saying, "I win! You can't beat this." and it infuriates me and also makes me so sad at the same time. I feel there were so many lost years in this dynamic.


Our R is hinged on my H changing these long-standing behaviors. It has to be so much more than just the LTA being regretted and now forever over.

He needed to face and change this behavior..and become vested in himself and us....honestly and consistently.

AMEN sister Numb! I agree - it has to go WAY past regret and ending. That was my non-negotiable deal since Dday. And I have to say he's done very well at this and it's still a work in progress. And as you said HB, most likely a life long process. We have gone to once a month MC now and I think we have pretty much agreed to have this be a life long thing for us. Once a month or perhaps once every couple of months. I think the old patterns can slip back in so easily and as you said Numb, so insidiously. As long as we stay in the conversation of us I think our R can remain healthy and happy.

Maia - Thank you so much for your insight and sharing what you did. This is a tough one to understand but hearing it from your perspective really helps to gain clarity.

((((UKgirl))))) Sounds like the war drums are beating. That anger can become an out of control beast sometimes but it almost always becomes a catalyst for moving things to the next level. Keep venting here. We've all had our moments here with the rants and vents. Don't even get FSA going about Snaggletooth! (ya know we love those rants FSA - just kidding. )


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maia - thank you for sharing that with us. This is the type of void that my H has been trying to describe to me. It was (and still is) very hard for me to understand given that I *feel* everything. I cry at ads, I laugh at bad jokes, I feel hurt by the smallest slight. Hearing the same words come from someone else, an anonymous source, makes me believe that what he saying is real.

Thank you again.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 12:55 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We spent much of our time in marriage counseling convincing H that it was not only OK but desirable to feel feelings, and then teaching him how to do it. Honestly, he had been numb for so long he couldn't even identify what the feelings were when he felt them. Not even the good ones.

He disliked all feelings, but particularly anger, so that was the main emotion he needed me to carry for him. And I did a great job. Honestly, lots of time I would be pissed and have no idea why. It was maddening, literaly and figuratively. My H was so practiced and subtle at the art of getting others to carry his feelings for him that I didn't even know I was doing it. Understanding that I was, and both of us working on changing our parts in the passive-aggressive anger handoffs was probably the key to our healing.

He says he is so much happier now and I know I am. Carrying around two people's emotions is too much.

Hi Maia. Hope all is well with you and yours.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
UKgirl
♀ Member
Member # 17062
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maia. Hmm. Walls of glass. It brings back an image that was with me for a very long time immediately after DDay. She was still poking her nose into our M with her text, text, text and pathetic voicemails. The scene is this:
I am looking at a mirrored wall. Behind me is a thick sheet of glass and behind that stands my H. He is trying to make me hear him, he is telling me he loves me, but I can’t hear, I can only see him in the mirror. Behind my H is another thick sheet of glass and OW is behind that, shouting (but not being heard) at my H that she loves him. He is not looking at her, he is looking at me. I can see all of this in the mirror. All I have to do is turn around and face them both and I am isolated until I do. I can turn and face my H and place my hand on the glass, my H can do the same. I cannot touch his flesh until the warmth of our hands melts the glass. And then she will disappear. Or, of course, he can turn from me and face her …..

Am I weird or what??


D-Day: 30 July 2006 LTA: 5yrs
Me, BS, 56 y/o Him, WS, 57 y/o
MOW, pathetic ex-fiancee.
3 grown boys and one 18 y/o
I don't consider myself married anymore.
There are some words once spoken split the world in two. Before you say them and after.

Posts: 3328 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: UK
soggycornflakes
♀ Member
Member # 17198
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alright...if there is anybody out there...I need a little advice or maybe I just need to vent. But, tomorrow will be nine months since I found out that my husband had a LTA for the last ten years of our marriage. It started out online as an EA and was an on again off again thing that they both agreed was not what they should be doing. It was in remission for several years before the last connection that led to renewed conversation and then PA. After six or seven months both W spouses decided they loved each other and were going to leave their spouses (me and other BS). My husband was sure I'd kick him out when he told me. I didn't. I couldn't believe it myself. I can't put it into words...but seeing where I am I guess I don't need to. My problem is that after months of trying to fix things the long and the short of it is that he still believes he loves her. No amount of therapy will fix our marriage if he loves someone else. The OW lives hundreds of miles away. They really have been NC for nine months. What could possibly be worth tossing away all those years? Our family and plunging everyone into a financial mess? I've done the numbers and I'm afraid. I know we'll make it...but the number's are frightening. We will go from comfortable middle class downward for at least a while. I don't understand how anything anyone could be worth this? What is it about anyone that makes them not able to live without another person? I'm just so....I don't know...


Life is a blessing... an adventure... many days very hard... always worth the walk.

Posts: 376 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Ohio
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 2:26 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Crap soggycornflakes!
I am so sorry.
Are you saying that WH and OW went NC to see if their M's could work out, before leaving for each other??

IMHO, I dont think any amount of MC would have made a difference, because as long as he had OW as an option, he wasnt trying to mend the M....his foot was always out the door.KWIM?

I honestly dont know what to tell you soggy. If he is determined to leave, there is nothing you can do about that. All you can do is look out for yourself and your family, find the best ways to protect you.

I am so sorry.

((((soggycornflakes))))


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:04 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can also relate to the emotionless H vs overemontional me situation.

We addressed this in MC, and H said that he finds it difficult to feel anything. He admitted that he did worry when he didnt feel the usual emotions when our kids were born, or when our baby passed away. He knows that he should be feeling certain things, but doesnt. And gets very confused with the way I react. I cry and laugh and love and hurt so easily.

We never did get around to solving this issue, and thinking about it now, I realise that it is one of the worries I have that hover at the back of my head.

When he says he really loves me, or that he is sorry, or that it hurts to see how much he has hurt us, etc...does he really feel this, or is he saying what he thinks he should be feeling? Obviously if I ask him...

And the dynamics during a fight...us again. He would say a few lines that would wind me up, then he would get cold and distant,sarcastic whilst I would be foaming. And the more emotional I became, the colder he did.He would runaway, I would run after him.Until I gave up.

I try now NOT to react too much. To leave the room or not engage. I HAVE TO DO THIS.For my survival.I cant risk fighting. I am not strong enough yet.

To give him his due, he has learnt some new behaviours. He does try to check himself. He does take some time out, then comes back, more subdued and less aggressive. He does know that my life is on the line.

However I cant always rely on him to make that his first consideration, although he does try. I have to be responsible for myself. I have to protect myself.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
mumto3sat
♀ Member
Member # 14336
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Soggy Cornflakes, I'm sorry I don't know your story, so sorry if I'm on the wrong track, but why would he still be in love with someone else after 9 months? Does he tell you this, is it something you feel?

If he is saying it are you absolutely sure there is NC? 9 mths is a long time to be carrying a torch for someone, maybe it's the wrong description of how he's feeling, maybe he just misses the contact? Maybe he misses the ego stroking? I don't know, but I would imagine that if H were still declaring his love for ow I would find it virtually impossible to R. It's hard enough as it is. ((((Soggy))))

Why is he holding on so hard to something he has decided to let go of? Can you talk about it with him?


Me (BS): 38
Him (WS): 38
3 children, d 6 s 4 s 1yr
D day #1 03/16/07 8 mth ea
D day #2 07/13/07 turned into 7 year long term affair, pa/ea 08/18/07 Got final info - is that it?

Posts: 284 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: UK
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 4:13 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((soggycornflakes)))

I don't have much advice. From what I have read on SI the "fog" tends to lift after a few months of NC. I guess I would wonder if NC has held - do you know this for certain? If so, has he told you outright that he still loves her? Does he know what love really, truly is?

I will fall back on the advice I have received here which is that you need to look out for yourself. You can't make him love you. You can decide what you absolutely need to work for the marriage and then ask him if he can provide those things. If not, you have your answer.

I am sorry you have found yourself a member of our club.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Maia
♀ Member
Member # 8268
Default  Posted: 4:17 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

you guys have to understand... for me at least, and I will be bold enough to conjecture... probably for your spouses too... the emotions are THERE. And they affect you.

you just cannot touch them. You cannot handle them. You don't know why you do what you do. It isn't all connected. It's like there are misfires, constantly.

when you can finally touch the feelings and feel them, connect the dots.. there is a tremendous adjustment and you basically fall apart. Well. I did anyhow. And facing those things is really really REALLY scary. on the level of you'd probably rather die than face it.

so walking into the process is really hard.

but just knowing you are numb, just understanding that you are separated from your own heart... that is a Huge step. It took me a long long time to realize it.

hi BT!!! and the rest of you lovely ladies. We're doing awesome. thanks.

UK, I understand. And I think that writing out those metaphors will help you in healing. Give them to your husband... word pictures will help him know your heart and see things, help him understand. He needs it. He needs to know what you're going through. It is way to easy to pretend and block it all out and avoid it.

soggy, sorry I seriously doubt there has been total NC. I'd check into it, find out where the communication is. A WS can be horribly terribly devious.
And a WS will lie to you and not bat an eye, because they are lying to themselves. Justification is like breathing. Do the 180 on his butt.

the "plan" you speak of is not uncommon. I did that too. Had that plan. The good thing is, I really meant it (eventually). I gave my marriage a real chance, which meant severing all ties and doing the work to change.

many people who come up with this plan aren't really serious about giving their marriages a chance. They just want to salve their conscience and be able to tell themselves that they "gave their marriage all they had" it's total bull. NC is the sticking point. If there is prolonged NC then yes, the person is honestly probably trying.

I think I started that way (lying) and then changed. Thank GOD.

but when lying is a way of life, you have no idea what the truth looks like.

for a WS in a LTA, I don't think the fog lifts so quickly. the issues there are usually really deep wounds and if those are not addressed, the WS will keep using the AP as a drug or crutch in their mind to keep from having to face the real underlying problems.

so it isn't true love.

it's true cowardice.

don't lose heart, there is hope and there can be healing. and real change.

[This message edited by Maia at 4:21 PM, January 1st (Tuesday)]


We will miss you Unicornsearcher. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Xf-Lesrkuc

Posts: 6152 | Registered: Sep 2005 | From: I am a Bluegrass-American
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maia - again thank you. I know I will never appreciate the fear that you and my H experience(d). He has told me that what he is going through, delving deep into his soul and asking himself to tell himself the truth, is the most frightening thing he has ever done. He said his instint has always been to avoid, to run. To confront and face is completely alien to him. And, to top it all, his is confronting himself. Not the mask of himself that he projected to the world, but the sad, broken person inside. He told me that at its most intense moments that he feels competely lost like he is coming apart in a storm. Does that make sense?


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just wanted to say Happy New Year to all of you.

I'm in a shitty shitty mood.

Asked H to tell me anything good he said about me to snaggletooth. He could not come up with anything. 10 Fing years, and nothing.

So I'm just existing today.

But I did dub today as DS day. I told him I would do whatever he wanted to do. And we did. That brought me some joy. I told H that I would have some joy today in spite of him b/c I sure couldn't have a good day b/c of him.

Am I just a cold bitch?????

FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
So Lost
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Member # 16801
Default  Posted: 5:40 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Soggycornflakes, I am so new to all this and everyone here has such good advise. I got the feeling from what you are aying that he has completely romanticized this ow. He has an idea in his head of what it woudl be like with her and she will never meet that. I truly hope he can get it all worked out in his head and that he truly is NC.

NYE was very hard for me. I don't know, I was just so emotional. It has been the worst year of my life. But not really. The last 4 1/2 years were the worst years. But I didn't really even know it. I cried when the ball dropped. Wh kissed me and put his arms around me a few differnet times and asked if I was okay. I wasn't, but maybe I will be.

Someone said something about wh picking fights and being distant because of the guilt. I look back and realize how true this is. We had such fu the first few years of marriage. Then it all crumbled and I thought he was just a grouchy grump. The kids woudl always say he was mean adn not want him to take them places without me.

They haven't said that since dday. Go figure. He is back to himself after all these years. Thoughtful adn funny adn fun to be around. Whatwas the point? Was she so worth fucking? I don't get it.

He originally had said he could talk to her, he flet ocmfortable and he liked that. So I mentioned that again. I asked him about it b/c he doesn't like to talk or share feelings at all. Turns out, he wasn't talking about anything serious. She was just easy to shoot the shit with. No pressure to d anythig else but have a beer and talk adn maybe go fuck afterwards. Ugh. All that to risk our marriage, my health, even the kids health.

I get so mad sometimes. ANd it is so hard to reconcile that with the fact that he is trying now and wants to make i work now. It was so many years and it is just taking so long for me to wrap my brain around that.

I was lookng at pictures the otehr day adn found one of the kid form the month the affair started. They were 4 and 2. So little. I showed it to him adn he rolled his eyes and said why do we have to dwell on it. I freaked out. He was immediately contrite but who gives a shit. Said he was sorry, blah, blah, lah. Don't you think I woudl like to not dwell on it?? Wouldn't I love to have 5 minutes where I didn't have to think about it? Do you think I enjo asking all these orrible questions?? Give me a break! This is not fun for me!!!! You did this, not me!!


Sorry for the rampage, must have struck something in me. I worry so much that 2008 will be worse than 2007. I don't hink I oculd bear it.


Me: BS
Wh: WS
Dday 10/28/07
LTA with coworker
Attempting Reconciliation
he is remorseful, I am willing, we'll see what happens

Posts: 671 | Registered: Oct 2007
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Soggy, he may still be in contact with her, or he may just be romanticizing her and his feelings for her. Either one works pretty well as a barrier to intimacy, you know? And for lots of WS that seems to be the whole point.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Night Everybody


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FSA - just saw your post. Sorry you are in a bad place. Do you think there is any chance that he didn't say anything "nice" about you because he didn't want to talk about you in a positive light to her. Generally, the WS (male or female) is reflecting in what the OP would want to hear. It makes sense that he would not be talking about what a wonderful and loving person you were....ain't gonna get much with that talk.

He might have not talked about you at all. If he was really trying to compartmentalize, *you* may not have existed when he was with her.

I know I am new to this but I hope these words may help.

ETA: No, you are not a cold bitch...she is.

[This message edited by hurtshirley at 7:08 PM, January 1st (Tuesday)]


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 7:12 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So Lost - the pictures are such a trigger. After Dday #2 I went around the house and gathered up all the framed photos. They are piled on a shelf waiting to see what I do with them. They may be replaced by R photos of the kids now, they may be burned, who knows? What I do know is that I don't want to look at photos of us as a family when he was f*cking other women....fucktard.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
numb and scared
♀ Member
Member # 9908
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, January 1st (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(soogy)))) I am so sorry...

It is downright painful to read a story like yours...painful and infuriating.

If he wants someone else, then he should be man enough to say it and do it.

It probably isn't just about the potential change in family finances, that has you in despair and indecision.....it is also a matter of wondering if that "infamous fog" is still impairing his mental and emotional traffic and wondering if you can wait it out. We all understand that.

I surely don't want to minimize the fog concept..but frankly, I have wondered if the "fog" is really more a lack of courage that is more compelling than disclosure or decision.. It is just easier to stay indifferent and indecisive, rather than to step up either way and be "real."

I am hesitant to suggest what you can/should do....however, I do think that (IF you are up to it)...an ultimatum may in order.

Soggy, Like moths to a flame...WS are attracted to the "atta boy's" and "atta girl's"....."you are so wonderful's"....."I understand you".blah, blah....all the self strokes that have become more important than integrity/honor itself.

Are you sure he is NC?? Does he really understand what NC means??
As long as he is still freely helping himself to that ego-stroking. even if only in obsessing on the memory of it, he can avoid reality.

Do you have an IC? Your needs have to be met....9 months of climbing up this steep a hill has to have you drained by now.

Hugs....you deserve them.


BS
LTA
"Lying is the strongest acknowledgement of the force of truth."
- William Hazlitt
"Let us move on, and step out boldly, though it be into the night, and we can scarcely see the way."
-Charles B. Newcomb



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