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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs -V I I
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 8:57 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FNF,

Yes, of course it was projection. No question.

Lost, when it comes to other people, what matters is not what we think of ourselves, but how we act toward them.

Your husband's actions have been: neglect verging on abandonment, manipulation, gaslighting, cheating, lying, betrayal. Add to that verbal cruelty and disaparagement.

Your sins appear to be over-involvement, some amount of being overly controlling, and anger at being betrayed that has manifested itself as verbal rage.

If we were to put your sins and his on a scale, I think he would "lose" big time.

He is trying to make you carry his guilt, Lost. Refuse it. This is the same tactic he has used on you for a lifetime. No matter how bad you are he cannot make his sins go away. But he is trying hard. He is trying to deflect his guilt onto you. Don't allow it.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
OneToughCowgirl
♀ Member
Member # 14817
Default  Posted: 9:01 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((Lost))))) Iím going to give a little tough love here. I hope Iím not overstepping and this is my opinion based on my perspective from what youíve told us. I know there is always more to the story than we can write in here. So here goes.
Canít you see hon he only does this to you to get you under control? He tells you that you have no spine and then the minute you show one he puts you in your place by pushing your buttons that he knows damn well will take you from the offense and put you on the defense. He does this because he knows it works like a charm. And then all he has to do it tell you later heís sorry and didnít mean it, but heís gotten what he wants. He wants the heat off of him. He wants YOU in HIS control so he doesnít have to face his own unpleasant messes and be accountable and responsible for them and especially accountable and responsible to you and your healing. Lost, if there is truth in anything he says, why would he use it as a weapon versus discussing it and working it out when things arenít volatile? He knows how to bring you to your knees, figuratively and now literally! Is there a part of you that would rather take this on and accept his vicious words as truth than to accept the truth of who he is and this part of him that heís showing you as BT said? When you stop letting him push your buttons like this and it no longer affects you, then he will stop. He will stop because it doesnít work. For now, it works beautifully for him so this will continue every time you ask for something that is going to take him out of being in control. I agree with FSA and BT Ė fuck him! Go have a day for yourself and donít allow these lies into you as truths. They are NOT truths! They are weapons. ((((Lost)))))


M 20 years / together 25 yrs
6 yr LTA
Me 47
FWH 48
D-Day Jan. 2006
We're good and getting better every day!

Posts: 607 | Registered: May 2007 | From: Chicago
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((lost)))

I found this quote in the NPD thread. I sent it to my H and he recognized himself immediately. He says that what is so sad is everybody thought he was the "good guy" and all along he was the monster. Read this several times and think carefully about what your H said (BTW - he *had* to know you can't say things that hurtful and then just *take it back*)

Short definition of an N:

Someone who is so ashamed of the core self that he/she creates alternate selves to win the approval of others. They are NOT in love with themselves. In fact, they are so certain that they cannot be loved, and are so desparate for approval that they are terrified of dropping the mask. They are able to keep up pretenses with everyone except their "loved one." For this reason, anyone that the N has reason to impress will never see the dark side--unless they somehow offend the N. The "loved one" gets to witness the N at his or her very worst, but, of course, because no one else sees the Mr. Hyde, the victim is often perceived as evil or psycho spouse. In fact, the victims often see themselves this way, which serves the N's purpose very well.

I added the bold. Lost - listen to the tribe - they have your best interest in their hearts.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 9:08 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost, I agree with OTC.

You teach people how to treat you.


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
Feeling so alone
♀ Member
Member # 14492
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You teach people how to treat you.
This is something that I have had to come to terms with, with myself. I know that my actions through the early years with my H, taught him that he could fool around and I would be upset, but not go anywhere.
Just something I have to live with. I should have put him to flight years and years ago. But I didn't. Now with 21 years history, it's not such an easy thing to do. Not even something that I want to do. And the sad part of that is, that he knew that all along. Blah Blah Blah. Just another one of my mistakes.

Better work
FSA


Together we're working through an LTA

If a man says something in the woods and there's not a woman there to hear it, is he still wrong?


Posts: 1357 | Registered: May 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

listen to the tribe - they have your best interest in their hearts

I know this OTC. I am grateful for each comment made.

Just spoke to him.He said that he did what he did because for once he wanted me to feel like how I often make him feel.He said that I use the things he tells me against him, thats why he doesnt trust me.I replied that it is different.The things he tells me are disclosures about he betrayed us.This is different.I was telling him about how I was hurt as a child. He is still justifying his behaviour but says I am refusing to accept responsibility for mine.

I think I am confused about what is going on.He said it is hopeless talking to me because I just wont listen.

Is there a part of you that would rather take this on and accept his vicious words as truth than to accept the truth of who he is and this part of him that heís showing you as BT said?

Thats exactly the issue we covered in IC last week OTC!

All the incidents that happened to me, was blamed on me being a naughty girl or not listening.I have taken the blame for all the incidents because thats was what I was told.and I believed them. And I think thats what I am doing now.Your comment hit a nerve!

Please skip this next paragraph if you need to.Its what we covered in IC and not LTA related.I just need to say this to myself over and over again until I believe it.Its my pity party:(

*when I was 3/4 years old, my parents were expecting visitors and mum was really stressed out.Guess the inlaws (who we were living with were giving her a har time as usual).I was really thirsty and kept asking her for a drink and she kept ignoring me.Finally I took a coke bottle but couldnt open it,so I shook it and it exploded.My mum dragged me outside to the garden tap because I was gushing blood everywhere and started hitting me as she poured water over my hands.She had to be pulled away.I was taken to the GP an there was not time to give me asedative so they stitched me up.Both hands.I still remember sitting on this huge nurse's lap, she holding me down whilst the GP stitched. It was my fault for not being patient and troubling.

*When I was 7/8, my older cousins were babysitting my sisters and me.The eldest cousin had to make water hot on the stove to have a bath.She carried this huge pot to the bathroom (we were playing outside the bathroom).She didnt warn us and I jumped backwards, and she emptied the pot on me.Her mother then stripped me of what was not stuck, applied butter to the burns and a sheet to cover me, which then melted into my skin.I had to kneel there for about an hour before my folks came home.I was in shock. I received 3rd degree burns.and have a huge eschar on my back.I can never wear swimming costumes with open backs.It was my fault for not being careful and aware of my surroundings.I heard that often over the next months when I had to lie o my tummy to recover and had the dressings changed.

*When I was 9/10, I was playing ball outside.We should have been in at 5, but lost track of time.I tripped over a ball and hit my head.I started having epileptic fits after that, except it wasnt epilepsy per se, because it didnt actually show up on the EEGs.I was taken to all sorts of doctors until they decided to treat me as if I had epilepsy.It was my fault for playing outside when I should have been inside.
The twist(punishment) in this was that before the fall, I used to come out tops in my class.Always. When I started the epilepsy medicine,I dropped to the bottom of the class.No matter how hard they pushed me or how hard I tried, I just couldnt go back to the top. And I tried very hard.I thought I just became stupid overnight.Only last year I found out that the epilepsy pills killed of my brain cells.Noone told me.I assumed it was my punishment.
Although the fits stopped after a year, the fear stayed with me for a long time.Never knowing when it might happen.Being afraid of water because I was told that if I have a fit there I would drown.Most of all, my teachers/extended family were never told. It was our family secret.

God, this list just goes on and on.Every time something bad happened, it was my fault for not being good.No matter how hard I tried, no matter what I did.And I fear its happening again now.

So OTC, I can believe very easily that all this is my fault rather than H's.
Why should this be any different to the rest of my freekin life?


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
whatalife
♀ Member
Member # 579
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost, my H can behave in a very similar way to yours.
It is his way of defending his position by attacking and it's just another example of how weak and pathetic they really are.
When you are unable to share any vulnerabilities without knowing that they will be stored up to one day be used against you,you know you are truly in a marriage where there can be no intimacy or trust. It does not matter which excuses he gives you this is part of him which you will never be able to change.
You must change YOU. I felt so sorry when i read about your up-bringing, but reading your account I felt that you do know it was your parents who were in the wrong, not you. You don't have to let their behaviour influence how you feel about yourself any longer than you want to.
You have brought up your children in a very different way, because you recognised that the way your parents treated you was not loving, encouraging or kind.
I would not be at all surprised if your son was awake when all that was going on though,so try to walk away from your H when he gets you into that state if the children are in the house.
I know that is really hard, because I have been there.
Only you can decide what to do about the marriage but please make your mind up that your H is the wrongdooer in this situation and do not, for one moment, let him make you believe that you are responsible for his warped and wicked behavior.
It is not you, it is HIM, and that is totally clear to anyone who reads your story.

Posts: 226 | Registered: Oct 2002 | From: Britain
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

for once he wanted me to feel like how I often make him feel


If that is an acceptable instructional tactic for him, then perhaps you should go out and find another guy to screw for several years and an old flame to carry on a decade-long flirtation with.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost, it's hard to get over that mindset of accepting blame for everything when you were raised with it. It permeates how you view the world and your place in it. It also brings a sense of isolation and shame along with it, although it shouldn't.

We just keep thinking if only we were "better" none of these bad things would happen. And sometimes we are unfortunate enough in our lives to hook up with people who use that vulnerability in us to excuse their own wrongdoing.

My mother probably has borderline personality disorder. She is a rager and a punisher and so is my oldest sister. The rest of us were expected to take the blame for their actions our whole lives. And we did.

She broke my front teeth by slamming my head on a counter when I was 7. I was told it was my fault because I wouldn't stop moving when she was washing my hair. I was instructed to tell the dentist that I was clumsy and fell while playing. I think that was the beginning of my taking responsibility for everything that occurred anywhere near me.

It's hard to stop doing that but necessary because it's one of the key ingredients in controlling behavior. We grow up hearing that we have caused our parents to behave in this way or that way so it's not such a stretch to believe that we can not just influence but control how people act. And that we should. We should MAKE SURE people do right because it's our fucking fault if they don't.

But accepting blame and responsibility for everyone else is a primary reason for feeling like a failure and for feeling shame because the truth is we don't control anyone else. And yet we accept the blame. No wonder it is so easy for others to push the responsibility for their behavior onto us. We've been trained since childhood to accept it.

What your husband did was cruel, Lost. That cruelty is in him and he has to own it and deal with it. The fact that you and the rest of us also have cruelty in us does nothing to change the astoundingly steep levels of cruelty in him.

He is not a safe person and never has been. I believe this is his way of not just controlling you, but of trying to control your IC as well. Of ensuring that you will change in the way he wants you to -- making you more docile perhaps, but not in ways that will cause him discomfort.

Please make sure that you detail this entire scene for your IC so that she knows what the two of you are dealing with.

BT

[This message edited by BorrowTrouble at 12:55 PM, December 3rd (Monday)]


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 1:12 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I'm able to, I just keep repeating to myself "He's the f'd up one, not me. I'm fine, it's him."

It does help.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for sharing that BT.I hope that it didnt bring back unnecessary bad memories for you.

You know I was feeling like a right twat for writing what I did.A part of me is jumping up and down screaming,"What are you doing? These nice people will know for sure now that you are nuts.You are NOT supposed to talk about this stuff to people."

When I was 11, I took an overdose of my emilepsy pills.I was babysitting my sisters, told them to play nice whilst I was going to lie down.I very calmly swallowed the bottle, lay on the bed and went to sleep. Fortunately (???)my parents returned early,checked on me and rushed me to hospital, where my stomach was pumped.The next day, a social worker asked me why I did what I did.Without being told, I knew that I had to lie.And because I had such short notice, I couldnt think of a good enough excuse, so I said it was because my dad made me work too much in the garden. My parents BELIEVED it. I wasnt to work outside again (of course my F made smartass comments about this every time, or I would get The Look), and my sisters were jealous of me.
Oh and the excuse my parents gave to the world (because they couldnt say that my F made us work like dogs outside)was that I had dehydrated.My fault for not drinking enough water.

But like I was saying before I digressed, I was wondering why I write this stuff down here, whereas before I would just shut up.Its because if I dont write it, I would think it didnt happen.Or it didnt happen the way I remember it because H would convince me otherwise.And when I read your indignation and anger, it validates me, you know? Then I know I must not be overdramatising this, or I have a right to be XX, or that this is not right.

I am heard by people who get it. I dont mind anyone overstepping the line, or giving me a 2X4.Really I dont.For the first time in my whole life I feel a little safe somewhere.

Isnt it sad it has to be in cyberspace.

I want so badly to feel safe and protected by H. And I keep getting disappointed. What is that saying about when you keep doing the same thing and keep expecting a different result?
Its just that sometimes he can be so sweet and kind and considerate and loving. Sometimes when he holds me,I really feel safe and loved. Sometimes he can do the smallest thing, and its like my heart switched on. Sometimes I feel like there is noone I would rather sit across from than him.Sometimes I catch his eye in the crowd, and I feel like we are a unit. Sometimes when we are both cuddling in front of the TV with the kids, everything seems right in our world....and I believe with every fibre of being, that yes, we can be happy, we can make this work, our children will know what its like to feel safe and loved.

But its times like now, when I look at our whole history togther, and I want to slap myself silly.I want to take the kids and run far far away.Sometimes, like this weekend, I am ashamed to admit, I want to run out the door all by myself, and keep on running until I drop dead.

I want to thank you all again for the time that you spend reading my dribble. Sometimes when I go back and read what I have written, I swear I would smack myself hard.

It seems like every week I am here hogging the board.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You know Lost, you're not hogging anything. I've found I learn as much from what people write to others as from what they write to me. So, don't worry about it. Take what you need, help where you can and let others do the same.

And as tough as it is, it is not disloyal to your parents to talk about your childhood. That is part of your story, and it is your right to tell it. You are not doing it to embarrass them, but to understand yourself.

It is the right thing to do. Keep on digging and sharing.


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
runoverbytruck
♀ Member
Member # 11752
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What is that saying about when you keep doing the same thing and keep expecting a different result?

Insanity is when you keep doing the same thing and keep expecting different results, Lost.

Take good care of yourself and hold yourself dear. You are the only one you can truly count on. Be there for yourself.


LTA BS

If you think the grass is greener on the other side, it's because it's fertilized with bullshit.

The best protection a woman can have is courage.~Elizabeth Cady Stanton


Posts: 6814 | Registered: Aug 2006
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you...again.
H is on his way home.He left yesterday for work.I actually dont want to talk to him. So I am going to take a sleeping pill.He left me 2.

I feel...I dont know how I feel about me/us.

But I do feel grateful and humbled for you lot.

Goodnight all.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
lostsuol
♀ Member
Member # 13706
Default  Posted: 6:27 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

{{{Lost H}}} {{{LTA tribe}}}

Not singling out LostH... I just realized that many of the group need hugs and didn't want to waste bandwidth by listing hugs separately.

BT said exactly how I feel:
You know Lost, you're not hogging anything. I've found I learn as much from what people write to others as from what they write to me. So, don't worry about it. Take what you need, help where you can and let others do the same.
And as tough as it is, it is not disloyal to your parents to talk about your childhood. That is part of your story, and it is your right to tell it. You are not doing it to embarrass them, but to understand yourself.
It is the right thing to do. Keep on digging and sharing.

I don't want to minimize LH's situation but I have some of the same childhood issues with variation in circumstances. Also incest from 12-17 yrs old until my mom left my F. You saved me from writing it out as you got help and advice that I need also. Thanks everyone who posted in response to LostH.

Can't stay online as H is almost home.


Posts: 808 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: Canada
hurtshirley
Member
Member # 16197
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, December 3rd (Monday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So what is the problem with these people actually disclosing everything? Another ďrevelationĒ tonight which is more HR oriented but, in my mind, very, very serious. He, as a senior member of the company, took a group to a strip bar including one woman who was part of the group. She (as I would have) filed a complaint to management that this was inappropriate. I have asked him tell me EVERYTHING that might be construed as questionable and, yet, this comes out tonight. This is YEARS ago. Why would he know this and hold it back? It makes no sense and now I donít believe anything again.


"Forgiveness is the grace by which you enable the other person to get up, and get up with dignity, to begin anew" Desmond Tutu

Posts: 2170 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lost Heart
♀ Member
Member # 11515
Default  Posted: 3:44 AM, December 4th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost Suol
I am glad that you were able to piggyback off me. BT is right...we learn from other posts too.

But have you ever written down what happened to you?Just seeing it in black and white makes such a difference to me KWIM?Its like its just NOT only in my head..its real, it happened..and no matter how well our family may cover it up, it was real.
So if you are not comfortable talking about it here, how about journaling it.You will find tears streaming down your face (like me yesterday)but thats ok.

Shirley,
Info does come in trickles for many reason.They really forgot until something triggered the memory; they are scared to mention it for fear of our reaction and wait for a "good" time; they have minimised its importance or really dont think it was that big a deal; or thye are just not ready to face that issue yet, let alone discuss it with you.

Its going to take time for all the info to come out, and at some point, you are just going to make peace with the fact that you will NEVER know everything that happened in their life (A and nonA related).I am ok with that now because I have the big and meduim stuff and some of the tiny stuff. I dont need to know anymore about the A's, which is why I am ready to shut the door on OW now.

But its still early days for you.So hang on tight, write down whatever he says and process it in your own time.

Good morning all.


Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

Posts: 2471 | Registered: Aug 2006 | From: London
forgivenotforget
♀ Member
Member # 11053
Default  Posted: 7:43 AM, December 4th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lost Heart - so happy to hear you sounding better this morning. I hope you got a good nights sleep and that you're feeling stronger.
Lostsoul, Lost Heart and BT - I wanted to send hugs to all of you. It's so incredible what each of you have had to survive. Your stories are heartbreaking and I wish there was something, some words of comfort, that I could say or do to take away those memories. There is a by-line from someone, "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger." I can see that strength in each of you and it is amazing. You are each amazing! And the support you offer to all of us who are suffering shows how strong and compassionate you are and I am so grateful for each of you.


D-day - 12/23/05 LTA - 8 years.
"Love's a matter of trust and I just want to believe in us." M McBride

Posts: 1901 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: A tunnel where I'm beginning to see the light
weepy
♀ Member
Member # 8790
Default  Posted: 8:23 AM, December 4th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Grrr... these guys just make me so mad, but they are not worthy of my time or energy.

H talked last night about a course he took 25 years ago, about the instructor and one particular issue he remembers... real estate law adn all I could do is sit there and think.... he remembers. He's lying when he says he doesn't. He uses that memory loss story as an excuse all the time (P/A activity).

Each of us is trying build something new and dynamic with old parts. Should be interesting.


Dday: 9/12/05
M: 29 yrs( me anyway )
BS(me): 55 And I'm ok with that
FWS: 57- Multiple PAs, LTA 7? yrs.

Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda


Posts: 9340 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: SE PA
BorrowTrouble
♀ Member
Member # 2435
Default  Posted: 10:42 AM, December 4th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shirley,

I can't speak for your husband, but I know that my husband never willingly disclosed any information about himself that made him look bad. And mine had also done so many ignoble things that I'm sure some simply got lost in the corners of his mind.

He should have told you before, unquestionably. At least he told you now.

Lostsoul,

Lost gave you some really good advice, from my experience. Writing out your history helps to put it in perspective in so many ways. I had the chance to do that in IC and with my younger sister, and it was a very emotionally but healing experience.

BT


D-day 7/29/04.

Posts: 5711 | Registered: Oct 2003
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