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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 3
toonice
♂ Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 10:39 AM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree with TwiceTorn on the Langley books. Seems like more excuse-making for dishonest minds who refuse to face the reality of what they've done, and how they've betrayed themselves, their families, and their own values.


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
Kuwaited
♂ Member
Member # 5491
Default  Posted: 10:45 AM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I didn't read the Langley books, but:

"Women's Infidelity".

Pfffhhhtttt!!

Women's infidelity...men's infidelity. It's all fundamentally the same. I think attempting to draw distinctions is folly.

It is one thing and one thing only..irrespective of the offending gender: Betrayal.

It matters not one iota the "why" of it or what the underlying issues are.

In defining differences between a man's infidelity and a woman's infidelity there are subtle and not so subtle implications that one is not quite so bad as the other. For example....it is often stated that women cheat for "love"...me cheat for "sex". Clearly.....cheating for "love" is so much more acceptable. Who doesn't want/need love???


"For every trip to the vet, there's a car ride.", Satchel Pooch.

"At some point in life, everyone has gambled on a fart and lost." -- Tad...from Craig's List


Posts: 8446 | Registered: Oct 2004 | From: North Atlanta Burbs
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome Lake County Guy.

Sorry you had to join.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
wifehad5
♂ Moderator
Member # 15162
Default  Posted: 12:09 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife is 10 months older than I am


FBH - 42
FWW - 43 (BrokenRoad)
2 kids 7&12

The people you do your life with shape the life you live


Posts: 35366 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Michigan
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:16 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In defining differences between a man's infidelity and a woman's infidelity there are subtle and not so subtle implications that one is not quite so bad as the other. For example....it is often stated that women cheat for "love"...me cheat for "sex". Clearly.....cheating for "love" is so much more acceptable. Who doesn't want/need love???

Precisely.

When men cheat there dogs but when women cheat there husbands must be somehow at fault. Either the husband isnt doing the job in bed or he is leaving her alone too much and shes lonely.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When men cheat there dogs but when women cheat there husbands must be somehow at fault. Either the husband isnt doing the job in bed or he is leaving her alone too much and shes lonely.

For the record, I agree with this completely, and Langley never asserts anything else. She says, more than once, in fact, that no matter how good a husband is, women who don't cope with the issues raised by their social milieu and the fantasies they've inculcated will cheat because they're (essentially) fucked up.

But I'm off this horse. Langley isn't my bible or anything, so I'm not going to keep defending her stuff.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dont believe any one book holds all the answers, but each offers some insight.

Often WW say they have low self esteem issues. Maybe thats true, but I wonder if the reason we try and make the M work again and try R bending over backwards to do so isnt because we are the ones with low self esteem?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Lonerider
♂ Member
Member # 9205
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good point Razor, I suspect if I had more self esteem, and more experience with women I may not have ended up with DW.


BS me 43 years old
WS her 45 years old
married 14 years, together 20
2 kids
D-day 7/15/05

Posts: 4225 | Registered: Dec 2005 | From: western NY
Kuwaited
♂ Member
Member # 5491
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I'm off this horse. Langley isn't my bible or anything, so I'm not going to keep defending her stuff.

Right. I was just offering up a general vent on a general premise. Haven't visited this forum for awhile...so I figured WTF..might as well stir the pot.


Oh...and I'm 6 months older than the ex.


"For every trip to the vet, there's a car ride.", Satchel Pooch.

"At some point in life, everyone has gambled on a fart and lost." -- Tad...from Craig's List


Posts: 8446 | Registered: Oct 2004 | From: North Atlanta Burbs
shyguy
♂ Member
Member # 18281
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have low esteem now. I don't think I did before cheating wife but I do now. Infidelity is a serious blow to your self confidence. I unclogged my toilet last night. It did help my self confidence. It did not make me a suave guy with the ladies though.


Love stinks yeah yeah(J. Geils)

Posts: 5866 | Registered: Feb 2008 | From: tulsa
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 1:23 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Low self esteem??

Try having the old lady run off with an out of work carny, who's addicted to crack, lives at home with mommy (at age 44), and moves her in too. And she paid fucking board!!! What a fucking kick in the nuts that was.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 1:32 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yikes Jimi40!

WTF? How can she believe that this is a better situation?

Time to find a new old lady.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No, brother, we are back together. Been in R for almost 2 years.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 1:45 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

More of what I wonder is if we stay with them and try to R because of our own self esteem problems.

Agreed that self esteem takes a kick in the nuts from WW shacking up with a piece of shit other guy. I used to be very confident now if my W says anything good about how I look or anything else my first thought is yah right. I mean if I were actually good then why would she trash me for some other guy?

After Dday esteem was shattered and I actually thought that because I wasnt good enough to stay true to that I could never find anyone else. I was afraid of being alone. She on the other hand had proven that she could find someone and that if we D she wouldnt be lonely.

Looking back I think that I held on so tight after Dday and worked so hard for R simply out of fear.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
toonice
♂ Member
Member # 19862
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Either the husband isnt doing the job in bed or he is leaving her alone too much and shes lonely.

Well, I certainly was doing the job in bed, and then some. She sure as hell wasn't. Then she said she was lonely? Um - bullshit! I'm lonely too. I pull up my big-boy pants and tough it out for 8 hours every day until I get home to my wonderful kids and dogs, and "loving" wife.

It wasn't fucking loneliness. It was her inability to deal with normal everyday life like a grown-up.

ETA: (note - I believe this, intellectually, but yes, I have low-self-esteem issues too; cheating wife wasn't the cause of them, but she sure didn't help. - and yes, I get defensive as hell about this societal "attitude" that my FWW's sadistic selfish behavior was my fault. - for the record: I worked pretty much 40-50 hr weeks, seldom travel, and spent evenings vegging in front of the TV with her on the couch - she couldn't handle me being away at work during the day? She needs a babysitter, not an H)

[This message edited by toonice at 2:11 PM, January 13th (Tuesday)]


Stronger than reason, stronger than lies, the only truth I know, is the look in your eyes.
BH(42) FWW(41; 8+ OM/OW, 5 year LTA)
M: 16yrs, 2 kids DS16, DD13. d-day 6/17/2008 (after 9 months of MC+gaslighting).

Posts: 4898 | Registered: Jun 2008 | From: CA
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had already moved on. After about 6 months of grief, I started going out, dating, and yeah, even gettin some. I was gettin good at "bachin' it". I was even starting to be happy, alot.

Meanwhile (evil grin still happens). Wifey's world was coming apart at the seams, I was NC, her daughter was barely speaking to her, her dream man was into the crack heavier then ever. Sorry, I giggled a little there.

I contact her, to get the marriage certificate, to start the divorce. We email, then talk, then date, then, well, here we are.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 2:23 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I love the evil grin part. I suspect that your first paragraph will describe me to a tee when my D is final.

As for the STBXW's life falling apart we shall see. I suspect she is in for a rude awakening of sorts.

Was it low self esteem that we put up with issues or was it the issues that beat down the self esteem. Which came first? When you are married you feel, as a man, like you have to stick it out and do the best you can. When someone else stops trying you just cannot carry it all yourself. You get tired and worn down. I wonder if it was more the fact that I got to the point where I was emotionally and physically exhausted, not just carrying around low self esteem. I know I am capable man. I've had enough success in life to be OK with myself.

I'll bet all of you have too.


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
Jimi40
♂ Member
Member # 10909
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

High self-esteem correlates highly with self-reported happiness. However, it is not clear which, if either, necessarily leads to the other.[20] Additionally, self-esteem has been found to be related to forgiveness in close relationships, in that people with high self-esteem will be more forgiving than people with low self-esteem.

Apparently, my self esteem wasn't that low after all.


You've got nowhere to fall, when your back's to the wall.

Posts: 5524 | Registered: Jun 2006 | From: Niagara
Finallyawake
♂ Member
Member # 21554
Default  Posted: 3:17 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looks like a bull market for self esteem on SI!


On my own and a better man for it

Posts: 458 | Registered: Nov 2008 | From: Phoenix
thyme2go
♂ Member
Member # 12908
Default  Posted: 6:04 PM, January 13th (Tuesday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Currently, women are initiating 70 - 75% of all divorces

Later, through my own research, I discovered that what I was experiencing was quite normal. In fact, women are the most likely to divorce in their late twenties and thirties after an average of 4 years of marriage. During this time, it's quite common for women to experience a pre-midlife crisis, which is similar to the male midlife crisis, only with an important difference - a difference that can actually make women more likely to cheat than men.

The "stages" that women often experience during the course of their long-term relationships

Several years into my research I was able to identify distinctive patterns and behaviors in the women I interviewed. I categorized these into four separate “stages” that women often experience during the course of their long-term relationships. The stages begin with a loss of sexual desire.

Stage 1

Women at Stage 1 feel as though something is missing in their lives. They have all the things that they wanted—a home, a family, a great husband—but they feel they should be happier. Over time, many women in this stage begin to lose interest in sex. It is not uncommon for them to spend a great deal of energy trying to avoid physical contact with their husbands because they fear it might lead to a sexual encounter. They frequently complain of physical ailments to avoid having sex and often try to avoid going to bed at the same time as their husbands. They view sex as a job, not unlike doing the dishes or going to the grocery store. Some women in Stage 1 claim they feel violated when their husbands touch them. Their bodies freeze up and they feel tightness in their chest and/or a sick feeling in their stomach. The majority of women in Stage 1 feel as though there is something wrong with them, that they are in some way defective. They are also fearful that their disinterest in sex will cause their husbands to cheat, or worse yet, leave them.

Stage 2

Women at Stage 2 experience reawakened desire stimulated by an encounter outside the marital relationship. Whether these encounters with a "new" man involves sex or remain platonic, women will typically give a tremendous amount of emotional significance to these encounters.

Many women in this stage haven't felt any sexual desire for a long time. Many experience tremendous guilt and regret, regardless of whether their new relationships are sexual, merely emotional, or both. Most begin to experience what could be termed an identity crisis—even those who try to put the experience behind them. Constant reminders are everywhere. They feel guilt when the topic of infidelity arises, whether in the media, in conversations with family and friends, or at home with their husbands. Women in this stage can no longer express their prior disdain for infidelity without feeling like a hypocrite. They feel as though they have lost a part of themselves. Reflecting society’s belief that women are either “good” or “bad,” women will question their “good girl” status and feel that they might not be deserving of their husbands. Many will try to overcome feelings of guilt by becoming more attentive toward and appreciative of their husbands. However, over time many women will move from appreciation to justification. In order to justify their continued desire for other men, women will begin to attribute these desires to needs that are not being met in their marriage, or to their husband’s past behavior. Many women will become negative and sarcastic when speaking of their husbands and their marriages and it is not uncommon for an extramarital affair to follow.

Stage 3

Women at Stage 3 are involved in affairs, ending affairs, or contemplating divorce. Women who are having affairs experience feelings unlike anything they have experienced before. They feel “alive” again and many believe they have found their soul mates. These women are experiencing feelings associated with a chemically altered state, or what is typically referred to as being in love.

These women are also typically in tremendous pain, the pain of choosing between their husbands and their new love interests. They typically believe that what they are doing is wrong and unfair to their husbands, but yet are unable to end their affairs. Many often try several times. Prior to meeting with their lovers, they will vow that it will be the last time, but they are unable to stick with their decisions.

Unable to end their extramarital relationships, women at Stage 3 conclude that their lovers are soul mates because they are unaware that they have become addicted to the high caused by chemicals released during the initial stages of a relationship. Many live in a state of limbo for years. “Should I stay married or should I get a divorce?” this is the question continuously on the minds of women at Stage 3 - it is also common for women at this stage to attempt to initiate a separation. In most cases, husbands of women at Stage 3, will launch futile attempts to make their wives happy by being more attentive, spending more time at home and helping out around the house. Regardless of women’s past and present complaints, the last thing women at Stage 3 want, is to spend more time with their husbands.

The reason many women will give for their desire to separate is a “search for self.” They convince their husbands that they might be able to save their marriage if they can just have time to themselves. They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Women at this stage want to free themselves of the restrictions of marriage and spend more time with their lovers. Most think that eventually their confusion will disappear. They think they will eventually know with certainty whether they want to stay married or get divorced and be with their lovers. Separation allows women at this stage, to enjoy the high they experience with their lovers without giving up the security of their marriages. Husbands of Stage 3 women are often unaware that their wives are having affairs. Their lack of suspicion is typically due to their wife’s disinterest in sex and in their belief that their wife is a “good girl.”

Women at Stage 3 may also be experiencing the ending of an extramarital affair, and the ending may not have been their decision. They may have been involved with single men who either lost interest because the relationship could not progress or who became attracted to another women who was single. Women whose affairs are ending often experience extreme grief. They may become deeply depressed and express tremendous anger toward their husbands. They are typically unaware that they are experiencing chemical withdrawal due to sudden changes in their brain chemistry. As a result, many will feel that they have missed their chance at happiness due to their indecisiveness.

Believing they have become more aware of what they want and need from a mate, women at this stage will often place the utmost importance on finding a "new" relationship that will give them the feeling they experienced in their affairs. A new relationship with a new partner will also represent a clean slate, a chance for these women to regain their “good girl” status. Some women will search for new partners during their separations. Others will return to their marriages, but not emotionally and still continue to search. Some women will resume sporadic sexual relations with their husbands in an effort to safeguard their marriage until they make a decision. Although they are often not sexually attracted to their husbands, desire is temporarily rekindled when they suspect their husbands are unfaithful, are contemplating infidelity, or when their husbands show signs of moving on.

Stage 4

The women in stage four included those who chose to stay married and continue their affairs and those who chose to divorce. Some of the women who continued their affairs stated that marital sex was improved by maintaining the extramarital relationship. Some thought the lover was a soul mate, but for one reason or another did not leave their husband and did not feel torn between the two. Others realized that their feelings were intensified by not sharing day-to-day living arrangements with their lover. Almost all of the women in this latter category were having affairs with married men. They believed their affairs could continue indefinitely without disrupting either partner’s primary relationship.

The women who chose divorce and were in the beginning stages of a new relationship typically expressed relief at having finally made a decision and reported feeling normal again. Many of the divorced women who had remarried and were several years into their new marriages seemed somewhat reluctant to talk about the specifics of their past experiences. However, they did mention feelings of guilt and regret for having hurt their children and ex-spouses only to find themselves experiencing similar feelings in the new relationship.

-womensinfidelity.com


I think there is a rather large degree of these stages that apply to my M. As STBX is in from what I hear (via rumor mill) relationship #4 or 5 (only she knows for sure) I think this in incredibly close to describing her actions since all of this crap started. After telling me she "never felt connected to me" (M'ed 23 year) she also said she doubts she will ever feel connected to any guy. I have to wonder if that was some how supposed to make me feel better?

It matters not one iota the "why" of it or what the underlying issues are.


Yes, it does! I am doing my best to learn from this life changing event. I see traits of all four stages in my situation. With that, I know that there is nothing I could have done to prevent her from doing what she did, and is doing.


-t2g


BH - no longer 48
3 DD's - (27, 24 and 17)
Divorced on 8/6/09

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