Anyway, the one thing that I did like about the article is that it focuses on the M part...it gives a bit more of a picture of the type of interwining nuances that happen to a couple.
The other article (getyourangriesout....can't remember) focused more on the EU as an individual as opposed to in a relationship. The only thing that other article said about the wife/spouse of an EU person, is that it invokes alot of anger/frustration etc.
Anyway, it still leaves me feeling very frustrated when I read something that looks like its gonna be good only to be left hanging at the end. Indeed, where is the part that the EU has to change? Honestly people can be very good at addressing the symptoms but not at all good at giving guidance about what to do with the symptoms. Very frustrating.
HurtininDenver; WOW, our stories are eerily similar....except it was your wife who had the A and my husband.
So to pick your brain further, what do you mean that EU can change with alot of work? Exactly what kinds of things have you been working on with your IC if you don't mind me asking? Also, does your IC believe in the label of EU? Just curious.
WH is seeing his IC this week (it hasn't been ongoing), so I think he's starting from scratch again. I suggested that maybe he needs to be more directive with what he thinks he needs from his IC.
When I was in IC, I found that if I didn't direct the session, she would just let me ramble on for 50 mins., then take the last 10 to summarize what i said, and maybe pull out one little nugget and send me home.
I am a former counsellor by profession, so I kinda know a bit of the formula so to speak.
Fully reconciled. Life is really good!!
So how's the sex with a partner who is EU?
For me, sex is off the table right now with WH precisely because of the intimacy issues.
The way that last article portrayed it, pretty much describes my feelings.
So now, I'm at the part where intimacy needs to be built outside of the bedroom...and if it is, then sex will become a natural extension to that, not ever *intead of*.
Weepy, I'm kinda like you too in the communication part...its now me that is giving the short answers, not being long winded anymore. If there's even the slightest hint of *tuning out*, I shut up. I do not initiate any discussion about R etc. I leave it all up to him. He squirms, you can really tell he so incredibly uncomfortable in bringing any of the issues up for discussion. I can see him become agitated, wandering around, gets very nervous, has a few *false starts* before he actually gets the words out. Its amazing really to see how difficult it is for him to even be the one who starts the conversation. When I saw that the first time, I mentally went back to all the discussions we ever had and realized that it was ME who had brought up every single one. That was a *wow* moment. Anyway, I digress......we were talking about sex....
So how's the sex with a partner who is EU?
One line in the marriagemissions article really stuck a chord with me.
"At one extreme, the evasive man abstains for long periods of time, showing virtually no interest at all in his wife sexually. "
My H was like that for years, there were times when we'd have sex two or three times in one year. He never exhibited any interest in sex but would complain about how little sex we were having. He would never initiate it and after being rebuffed or ignored one too many times, I'd give up.
He also is only interested in having what he considers "dirty" sex. The only way he can get excited is if it is "dirty".
Lighting candles, soft music, tender touches and loving words do NOTHING for him and he does not offer those things to me. We don't make love, ever, we f***.
I don't mind getting the freak on every now and then but I'm starving for some intimacy and tenderness!
[This message edited by sunlil at 3:28 PM, November 19th (Monday)]
When WW came to me on DDay#1, I was mental and in shock. You know the whole rollercoaster ride. We started with one MC but she didn't work, and then we found our current one who is great. We started making real progress right away. However, 2 weeks after we started with new MC, I discovered A#2. I lost it (see my profile for the gory details).
Anyway, a week after DDay#2 I finally went on anti-Ds. That was probably the best thing I ever did. It cleared my mind and calmed the rollercoaster. It allowed me to stop obsessing about the As and to focus more on our M and the reasons this was happening.
As we explored our relationship and the timeframe leading up to and during the As, that's when I finally realized how distant I had become. It was really f****g scary because I hadn't even realized it while it was happening. That's when I decided I needed IC to figure out why I had become so distant
My IC has never used the term EU but acknowledges that's what was going on.
I guess you could say that WW A was my 2x4 to wake me up. In fact, I've often times felt like I was in some sort of a Fog, because even though I deeply loved my WW and had all this admiration and affection for her, I never showed it. I didn't know why at first, but as we (WW and I) explore it more, I think there were some deeper trust/security issues we both had. It caused us to avoid conflict and b avoind conflict we never discussed our true feelings. By not discussing our true feelings, we lost intimacy. When we lost intimacy, our M became vulnerable to an A.
Remember this point about intimacy because that plays into my input on the whole sex thing.
But back to what I am working on to change my EU patterns. Well, one the ADs have helped tremendously.
But the real first step was recognizing and accepting that we were both a little EU (me more so). Once I accepted that, I had to understand why (the stress). Then I had to understand what patterns were an expression of the EU (drinking, obsessing, going into my own world and shutting WW out, keeping negative feelings in and not being honest with WW). Some of these patterns were only a few years old, some had been there our whole relationship. Now that I no what these patterns are, I try to watch for then, not jsut with WW but with others. WHen I notice the pattern starting to repeat, I make a conscious effort to change what I am doing. It's not that easy, but each week I get a little better at it.
I believe my EU was/is somehow connected to my co-dependency. That is what my and IC's main focus has been lately...breaking the co-. I;ve noticed that as I find my "self" more and have build confidence I seem to be more emotionally available.
It's all a work in progress, but I think admiting I had a problem was the biggest part. Fortunately, it somehow smacked me in the head and I wanted to figure out why it had gotten to such an extreme.
I will tell you that at first I only thought it was going on over the last few years. Now I'm realizing it was been that way for a loooooong time. Not our whole relationship, but pretty much. It was never as bad as it was the last few years, but it was there.
So anyway, back to the sex. Since DDay, there's been none
Obviously WW isn't interested since she's "in love" with someone else. Also, a big part of our probelm is the lack of intimacy and affection caused my the EU and lack of honest communication.
So my only frame of reference is sex pre-DDay. Obviously, when we first started dating, it was very passionate very exciting! However, as time went on it became routine. Sure we would do something a little different or exciting once in a blue moon, but overall it was prescribed and not very adventurous. Please note that WW and I started dating when we were 19. So for the first 9-10 years, my libido was running overtime. I didn't really care how we did it, just that we were. I was/am a very...uhmm....unselfish lover. Literarlly a "people pleaser". But it was all about physically pleasing her, not emotionally pleasing her.
Again, since we were so young and had developed a pattern of conflict avoidance anyway, we never really talked about it.
Eventually we got to a point where I was ALWAYS initiating things and my "favors" were rarely if ever reciprocated. This is where her EU kicked in the most. It was annoying, but again I avoided the situation because I was too inmature.
The odd thing is that during the 6 months leading up to DDay#2, our sex life was starting to have more "variety" for lack of a better term. WW has admitted this was her attempt to find the spark with me again. I just went with the flow and we never talked about why the changes. Again, old immature communication patterns are hard to break.
I started reading a book called "Passionate Marriage". The author is both a MC and a sex therapist. The first part of the book emphasizes the importance of individuality in a M (which has been good for my "co-" issues).
The second part of the book talks about how to have a more fullfilling sex life once you both are emotionally-committed and independent people. A lot of it has to do with communicating your sexual needs with your partner and being "open-minded" to their needs.
As I said, WW and I are a looooooong way from there right now (especially since she's sleeping in the guest room)
But if/when we get back to that point, I can't wait to put these ideas into practice. I'm hoping that part of the R goes easier and is more fun than what we're dealing with right now
It has always been there in some form or another for most of our relationship too. Again some of it has to do with trust, some with our immaturity as our relationship developed, and some from her FOO.
Oddly, hers got MUCH better prior to the As (right around the time mine was getting bad). I wonder if she sensed my increased EU?
Once the As started, that's when I noticed her's get bad. It got better inbetween A#1 and #2, but then got REALLY bad after DDay.
Looking back at the last 12 weeks since DDay, even though I said earlier she has been EU, the last week or two I've noticed it starting to get better a bit...
[This message edited by HurtingInDenver at 3:59 PM, November 19th (Monday)]
Hurting - I'm sorry to hear about your W. Is is promising that she admitted to contacting him after you confronted her? It would be in my situation. I know the things that he actually admitted to made me feel much better than the things I had to find out on my own.
During my H's A, I missed the emotional connection and had a hard time enjoying sex. I felt I needed that. But after dday, I have just seen it as sex and when I look at it that way, I can do it. H read something I had written in a journal about that and was offended that I only considered it as sex and not 'making love'. Whatever. But he was the same before, during and after. Even getting upset if I wasn't in the mood when he was. Was that guilt disguised in a different emotion?
I remember being so "proud" of his handling everything. Because he never complained, I thought he was a pillar of strength. After the affair the first MC we saw told me he was a time bomb waiting to explode as a result of holding in all the emotions. I can't believe how stupid I was. In actuality, all those strengths I saw were weaknesses.
He is so emotionally retarded that when the MC asked him about "feelings" he couldn't respond. She ended up giving him a copy of feeling words so he could learn how to answer her questions.
It is very sad for people who don't experience emotion. My husband, I realize, doesn't experience joy like most people do either.
I am so glad I'm me and not him!
[This message edited by naivegirl at 11:17 PM, November 19th (Monday)]
D-day #1 Jan 31 2007
D-Day #2 March 25 2007
Roll on Roll on Roller Coaster
We're one day older and one step closer
Roll on there's mountains to climb
Roll on we're on borrowed time
Working on Re
He is so emotionally retarded that when the MC asked him about "feelings" he couldn't respond. She ended up giving him a copy of feeling words so he could learn how to answer her questions.
Skye: that's the same list we had to give my H. He doesn't use it though. Says he doesn't "need" it... he's only angry, that's all.
Wow, Sex. I can count on one hand the # of times we've made love since Dday... and I wouldn't need all the fingers either.
We had no sex during his affairs. #1 he didn't need it from me because he was getting it whereever and whenever he wanted, with no emotional commitment. Sex with me was "complicated" by emotional ties. I demanded things of him, like honesty and patience. All most of them required of him was his $100. And from what he says about his LTAP, the sex was great, but it was sex and he didn't give a damn about pleasing her beyond what he HAD to do. (he says)
So after 10 years of having sexual relations like that... I'm convinced he forgot how to make love, so we had sex thse past 2 years for many reasons, but none of them because we wanted to please each other.
Try not. Do or do not, there is no try. -- Yoda
My H isn't going to change much more than he has, I'm beginning to accept that. You've chosen to stay, and so have I.
And the angry answer... only comes with much prodding and after saying "I don't know" 3 or 4 times before the C coaxes 'angry' out of him.
Do you guys also find that along with being EU, your S is PA???
I won the lottery, getting both. :-( Didn't even know I bought a freakin ticket!
These "crumbs" you refer to, I think that's what I get thrown at me all the time too. Last night WH left me a letter (we've been not really speaking...AGAIN for a couple of days) He writes this.....
"Whatever happens between us, I do want you to know that I am truley sorry for all the pain and destruction I've caused"
"Whatever happens????" To me, that's simply writing, well, gee, let's not bother doing any work here, we have NO choice in what happens, what happens will happen and we don't control it. I just wanted to scream this..."WHATEVER HAPPENS????"
That confirms to me the little effort you want to put into this M and R. Shit, I've been telling this "man" what I've needed (reassuring words AND actions to back them up, CONSISTENLY) for over a freakin year). His letter also said that "he just doesn't know what to do anymore"...HELLO THERE??? Have I be talking to myself or a wall this past year?? It has not changed!!!!! I didn't respond to the letter, just ripped it up and threw it out in the garbage, I'm sick and tired of this game of passing back and forth, I really am.
I don't know you guys, I get so frustrated. If you know you're sorry and if you feel sorry, heck even if you don't FEEL it, but know you are, they've got a mouth, vocal chords as well, what IS the real problem here. As far as I'm concerned with people's ability to change is if you want something BAD enough (for yourself!) you CAN change. I've told my WH this before, I truly believe it, I mean he so BADLY wanted to fill his emotional voids and ALL stops were pulled out because he WANTED to do this, he cheated, he SOUGHT it out, he did the work, he's proven to me that if he really wants something, he'll do ANYTHING to get it.
Ok, enough said, sorry having a bad day, venting and nervous because I'm off to write an exam I am totally unprepared for. Guess you can tell where my FOCUS has been lately.
Any other PA S's out there?
[This message edited by hellonearth at 12:50 PM, November 20th (Tuesday)]
My WH hasn't forgiven himself, he also hasn't forgiven his father for cheating on his mom with a co-worker when he was 6 yrs old. He has never trusted me 100%, he learned not to trust I guess, even NOW if I'm angry and I leave for a few hours, he gets suspicious about me trying to have a revenge A, c'mon it's been over a year, don't ya think I'd have done it by now. It's just NOT in me. And, I question, if he's REALLY scared (which he says about this) then WHY can't he do what I've stated I need to rebuild our M????
He will often, on top of all this....say or write that he doesn't know how I can forgive him, that he doesn't think he could do all that I've been doing, this is always with a letter thanking me for being so strong, for giving 100% etc etc etc.
I wonder if since he feels this is so unforgiveable if he's
a)kinda given up in advance
b)doesn't RESPECT me that I'm even trying to forgive something which he's referred to MANY times as "unforgiveable".
[This message edited by hellonearth at 1:08 PM, November 20th (Tuesday)]
And he never had a problem yelling at me when I forgot to buy his soup at the store or if the kids were being too loud or express frustration at his FOO or friends. Yet, me, he could never tell me about anything negative about him... he was always right, always perfect, never made mistakes, was loyal, overly judgemental... he was such a fine upstanding citizen, father and husband, that it was definately US that had the problems. He was fine.
Heard that all the time.
Alot of it is projection. What they hate about themselves they try to identfy in other people so they can hate them, rather than temselves. He hates that I'm emotional, yet pushes me until I'm a puddle, why? because he can't cry, wail or roll up into a ball and give up, that wouldn't be manly. Yet sometimes he wants to, but since he can't he hates that part of him, so he sees me do it and hates me.
It's easier than hating yourself.
It was enlightening to realize I am not crazy. Have been reading about passive/aggressive behavior for weeks.
Things in the marriage missions article that stood out to me:
1. I went through years of sexual rejection. Of course he was getting his jollies from his own hand and internet porn. The rejection/witholding of sex was extremely painful and damaging to me, especially considering his own hand was more enticing than me
2. Even after all that, he always feels the victim. You know, all men look at porn and have secrets yadayadayada. To this day he does not accept responsibilty for any issues in our M.
3. Our relationship is secondary to everything in his life and has been for many years. He thinks that because he left work every night and came home to me and our family rather than going out to bars or with friends, he was being right. No mention of the fact that he could pay video games for 3 + hours a night and only speak to us when needed.
The article was eye opening, but I know I cannot spend the rest of my adult life with someone like that. I guess I don't have a choice anyway as he refuses to R.
For the record, I am trying to own my shit. It isn't easy given the circumstances.
Anyway, thanks again for the article and the thread. It was great info for me and my healing!
I don’t think that there’s a thought or emotion that you expressed (in your first post above) that I didn’t think, feel or express. And, yes, I also got the same responses from my H.. My EU H is also PA and it’s a deadly duo. His A and the cover-up afterwards was sort of the ultimate expression of that. There is absolutely no reason in the world why you should have to stay in your M and help your H with all the hard work it will take to break away from his emotional unavailability. Knowing what I know now, I’m not sure that I will stay. It’s a formidable task and our MC told me up front that it may take years.
I’m quite a bit further out than you, however, and a little more calmed down now. Also, I’m older, married longer and because of our children and long history very interested in preserving my marriage as long it is not at the cost of losing myself. So I’m still trying to work this through and help, in the words of our MC help “teach” my H how to change.
One thing I do know is that showing your H your extreme anger and frustration (while those emotions are COMPLETELY understandable) doesn’t move the process forward. He sees this tornado of emotions coming from you as something incomprehensible, uncontrollable and fearsome. As an EU man he has never learned to deal with emotions, he just runs. Which was, more than likely, what his A was all about. He doesn’t think about and “make a decision” about how to react to your pain and anger. If he is truly EU, he’s on auto-pilot when he shuts down and leaves you hanging. When he tells you that he doesn’t know what more he can do, he likely means it. If he’s lived his entire life this way (running away from all emotional pain, his own and that of others) how could he possibly believe that running toward it is now suddenly a great idea. How could he possibly think that any good could come out of it and that he might be able to have positive impact. You say you have been telling him for a year what you need. And I’m sure that you have. I did. But my H never really processed it. He shut it out and kept it away from himself so that he could continue in his auto-pilot world. He would “hear” me talk. He “felt sorry for me” but sort of as if he were watching an animal being tortured from afar. He didn’t want to lose me and the family but he felt like a helpless onlooker who might really be better off just looking the other way.
He is only just “getting it” now and it is still so slow. Our MC has been working his butt off trying to reach my H and to work with both of us just to realize the extent of my H’s childhood “damage” and how hard he has to work to change his thinking in order to change his actions in our M. I still do show my H my anger from time to time. But when my H gives me that “there’s nothing I can do” of “I just don’t think I will ever be able to satisfy you” stuff, I just remind him where that is coming from. That was his “old” way of handling things and that he needs to see himself now as someone who is important to me and our M as something that needs constructive and proactive effort on his part. He is still learning this and trying to understand it.
I told my MC just this morning that if I had to do it over again I don’t think that I would have married my H. The MC (who we’ve been with for 1 ½ years) completely understood that.
It’s a tough road, no question. And no BS should feel guilty about saying, “I just don’t want to do it. Life is too short. I deserve more.” You do. But if you are going to stay in your M, you’ve got to start believing your H when he tells you what he knows about himself. That he cannot give you what you want and seems so clear (to you) that he should be able to give you. And then you and he have got to figure out if you both have the stamina and desire to do the work that will allow him to change.
[This message edited by Brass Ring at 4:21 PM, November 20th (Tuesday)]
I never have much time to post, as most of the time when I'm on SI I'm at work and I can't get much written. I wish I could. However I know if I ever could get this all out, the post could take up a whole page ! I just am thankful that everyone here is posting and saying alot of the things I feel and want to say if I could. I'll just keep reading and learning.
My FWH is EU and also seems to be PA as well. We haven't been to MC or IC yet ( can you believe after 2 years...we've been putting it off...you know...until we get around to it...HAHA P.A. joke.)
I have picked up a couple books that everyone is suggesting, it is starting to open my eyes to see what was happening for those shitty years prior to his A. And I see the patterns, I can see where I enabled so much of his PA.
Now so much makes sense. I could never really put my finger on it until now.
We've gotta get some councilling !!!
When my EUH first read about it, as a spectrum disorder, he relented for a couple of days. Was very compassionate about my pain and suffering (for a record two days), and remorseful for the pain his detachment had caused me. But thenit disappeared, he didn't try to get help, or even read books, or websites....
Here's a link:
Has anyone's emotionally unresponsive spouse been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome? Or anyone suspect it?
No. It's never come up and since my DD teaches and comes in contact with Asperger's children, I know what the overall person looks like.
It's really more than being distracted by what you're doing to the detriment of others. It's truly not recognizing others. It would entail more than affairs. If they didn't come home from work because they decided to go to a movie and didn't even think they should call home first BECAUSE to them, there's no one waiting for them. But they'll TELL you that. Lying is not an Asperger's symptom.
I don't think our S's did that. They KNEW someone was waiting for them at home, they KNEW what they were doing was wrong, or they wouldn't have kept it so secret. They KNEW they were lying. Their displaced anger at us was not because we were intruding on their "space" but because they needed to push us away out of fear we would see right through them.
They KNEW what they were doing. Asperger's can't HELP what they are doing.