So having gone thru this whole thread, I've yet to see a single success story. Even someone who came to a workable solution that allowed mutual happiness.
On the one hand i feel much better about myself because I've been feeling like shit that she could "love" another man and give him affection and sex, but wont give it to me. I kept thinking what is wrong with me, how can i try harder, why aren't I good enough.... I finally realized that she's emotional unavailable and it has very little to do with me. I don't think she can engage emotionally. Probably the closest she had was with me in early days.
On the other hand, we've got 4 kids and I don't really want to be a single dad. But the coparent/roommate relationship is just so hard. I'm craving some love and tenderness and she just doesn't have it in her.
What I've taken away is that you most likely can't make it a healthy, workable relationship. The only "chance" is to do what one woman did (sorry forget the name), demand divorce, don't back down and see if it forces a change. And even with that, I'd bet that the relationship degrades back to how it was once the pressure eases.
Basically it's divorce or find a way to put up with it.
(like talking to a brick wall)
It makes me sad to think I have lived like this for 12 years.
What is a relationship like that involves a person who is E.A.?
I can't remember?
I`ve lost all the trying, effort, fighting for reconciliation.
I`ve lost the ANGER at his abusing me in front of the kids(Did take him to court for that, though which ensures he won`t try that again...)
For now I`m coparenting.
But can I recommend two books? Melanie Beattie`s Co Dependent No More and Beyond Co Dependancy.
They`ve helped me realise that I have to mind me. Self care is where its at. I don`t go into my EU`s issues anymore. Its his problem.
Get your emotional support from real life loving friends. Love you, love your kids.Forget about EU spouse.
This is soooo what my WH is all about - you could be writing my life story!
I'm still reading, but I'll be back......
He cannot empathize or understand.
Even in his past, where he found out his fiance was cheating on him when their relationship was not going smoothly, I asked him if he could remember how that felt? To know you were lied to?
Hoping for a bit of "YES! that is what it feels like...or I get it!!"
His response was"
"Eh, we ended up breaking up anyways and I found out after we broke up, so it ended up not mattering"
Our MC told us he cannot empathize.
I find this totally befuddling, because he can sure let any other female whether on line or out in a bar bend his ear and he will listen and coach them.
Maybe it is because he has a goal of getting in their pants and pretending to care to them too?
After all, us in bed is been there done that, right?
BTW, what is HB?
Me BS 44
Him WH 39
Married 4 yrs
No bio children, just step's and 3 dogs!
My W to be their for me would force her to admit that she was/is a horrible person. Who wants to admit that? Instead she runs away. She has no self esteem and it is not like post d-day it is better. It is worse. It is not like we did not meet huge needs for them or they would have left instead of cheating.
I think many of us so strongly desire stage two ... a full complete relationship owning our failures. I want it to be different for both of us and deeper more happy for all.
You cannot want this alone. That is what makes this so brutal. The messages the A sent me all are still in play. Nothing has been done to undue the message and if I look at the messages a few weeks after d-day she has not changed.
I am open to a connection. She is not. It is beyond hard and one word sums it up lonely. If not for the kids their is no way I could do this. I would have ran to Alaska to get away!
Hugs to all on this board. I know it is hard.
I posted a bit of a diary w/my profile. It should fill in if necessary.
I'm the BS. He left me after the biz trip. Came home with the normal "not in love,etc."
He's been back home. Sleeping on the couch. I am so unsure of allowing him to stay under the same roof. Too soon? Here's why..
Many times are like last night. Our discussion was about how to comfort me in this time. He says he doesn't know how. We went on to discuss the beginning of A. He is pretty sure* that it was wrong.. but only says so with prompting. He can come out with "I didn't want you to hurt" on his own
Last night I asked him right out. I said "Do you feel remorse for having the A?".
He said "I don't know that I do." He is still in a place where he can't yet say "I love you." He just says he can't tell me what he doesn't know for sure.
Last night I went thru so many emotions. I yelled,cried..and there was rage! He finally said that he wasn't staying just for the kids. Finally admits that it has a little to do with me.yay..lol. I pushed, prob a bit too hard... and said that it should be the expectation that he help me recover.** He sat silent most of the time as usual! ** I know many of you prob have been there!
Just after the conversation my family called me to tell me that someone very close to me is sick. Near death, and a painful one. I went back to H for support. He couldn't hug me back.
I am so lost. Why is he here? Will he ever look for R on his own? Does he really not feel any love? How can he still think that A was okay but tell me that it was not ok to hurt me. WTF!? I'm scared.
I am so sad. My H is here, but won't comfort me. This hell?
Sex came up this morning. He said that because I asked him to get tested he would not get near me. He has barely gone for it since back in the house. This am he said that he was too busy w/work to get blood test. Too busy to get some? Huh? Who chooses work over sex. he makes his own damn hours. OH my. And then he pushed it back on me.. "you never wanted sex before we split up so...".
So what? I do now.
[This message edited by DoneThat at 10:07 AM, March 6th (Friday)]
H had a long term EA (probably a PA too) with a fellow coworker of ours. I demanded NC but he broke it and on our 2nd D-Day I threatened to divorce him.
So far he's NC with her (hopefully).
Since 1st D-Day (July 2008) H won't touch me, kiss me, hold me, say 'i love you' unless I initiate contact. If I dont, nothing will happen.
He stays home ALL THE TIME. Doesnt leave the house unless we are together cause he says I will think he's doing something. He's just home cause he can't go to her house anymore. I dont think she will let him cause I confronted her rather viciously in October and she's afraid I will do something crazy so she told him to get lost.
His actions reminds me of a song that says "your body is here with me, but your mind is on the other side of town".
I'm tired of trying to make him happy and get his mind off OW. I see nothing I can do or say will change his attitude so I have chose to leave him alone.
One day I'm going to wake up and decide I don't want to be married anymore and follow up on that. I feel it coming.
"It ain't about love anymore."
Over the past few years I have heard numerous stories about relationships abandoned while someone was either on an SSRI / SNRI or during withdrawal. I have thought about this untold hours and I’m going to try sharing those thoughts here.
I want to be very clear that this is not directed at anyone and I am in no way being judgmental.
It all starts innocently enough when someone has gone to the Dr for an ailment, any ailment but for this exercise we’ll say anxiety. They get a prescription for one of the medications known as SSRI’s or SNRI’s which are a type of antidepressant. They get the usual blather about how safe they are and how effective they are along with a stern warning about how they can cause dry mouth, nausea and a feeling of sleepiness. These drugs include Paxil, Prozac. Lexapro. Celexa, Zoloft, Effexor and Cymbalta.
The unsuspecting victim gets the prescription filled and because they were reassured about the safety from the Dr they don’t purchase a microscope to read the insert that comes with the medication.
They begin taking the medication and before long they have changed but it’s a very slow change. Changes that are barely noticeable in the beginning, starting with an anger outburst or an out of character comment.
When frontal lobe syndrome occurs symptoms such as Apathy, indifference, loss of initiative, becoming indifferent toward work performance, exhibiting impulsive and disinhibited behavior, or developing poor concentration and forgetful behavior (Hoehn-Saric et al. 1991). may be present.
The inability to feel good or satisfied may be missing due to a reduced dopamine level. The activities they once enjoyed no longer light their fire. You see for every incremental increase in serotonin levels there is a corresponding decrease in the level of the neurotransmitter Dopamine that allows us to feel reward or satisfaction. The big sale or other achievement won’t feel right, it won’t be enough. The cuddle at night may become meaningless.
Some will become manic. Mania includes but may not be limited to such things as
· increased energy, decreased sleep
· overly irritable
· fast emotional changes
· inflated self-esteem
· increased sexual drive
· poor judgment
The retrospective study I read says that slightly less than 9% will experience mania as a side effect of these drugs. A report on Fox News today said there are 30 million people in the US on these drugs at any one time and that 5% are manic or psychotic. Psychotic just means they have lost touch with reality. Perceived feelings begin to emerge which often times include blaming their significant other for everything bad that has ever happened or for things that never happened. The phone call just to see how they’re doing that was once viewed as sweet or considerate is now viewed as “checking up on me”
With that being the case and with more than half being women or girls it doesn’t take much reasoning to figure out what happens when they experience an increased sex drive, become disinhibited and exercise poor judgment. I use women here as the example merely because it’s much easier for them to act out sexually than it is for men. That however in no way precludes men from engaging in this type behavior for the exact same reasons.
It has also been reported in trial data that some people will actively pursue such things as pornography when they never were inclined to do so before. These are all things that may be outside “their normal behavior” Keep that simple phrase in mind “their normal behavior” it’s the key to understanding what has happened or is happening now.
Some will say at this point that sex had nothing to do with MY decision. The sexual scenario was just an example. The out of character behavior can and does come in virtually any form including but in no way limited to excessive spending, gambling, vivid violent dreams directed towards the loved one that create a fear of what you might do and the list goes on.
Soon with the help of the drug they begin to rationalize what they’ve done. Believing these new activities feelings and fears are really who they are and what they want they simply walk away from their previous life to pursue the perceived utopian existence they have discovered under the numbing mind altering influence of their medication.
Having rationalized they begin to feel threatened. Their secrets aren’t safe, so now what? The hard wired survival mechanism known as fight or flight kicks in.
Fight or flight
What is the "fight or flight response?"
This fundamental physiologic response forms the foundation of modern day stress medicine. The "fight or flight response" is our body's primitive, automatic, inborn response that prepares the body to "fight" or "flee" from perceived attack, harm or threat to our survival.
What happens to us when we are under excessive stress?
When we experience excessive stress—whether from internal worry or external circumstance—a bodily reaction is triggered, called the "fight or flight" response. Originally discovered by the great Harvard physiologist Walter Cannon, this response is hard-wired into our brains and represents a genetic wisdom designed to protect us from bodily harm. This response actually corresponds to an area of our brain called the hypothalamus, which—when stimulated—initiates a sequence of nerve cell firing and chemical release that prepares our body for running or fighting.
What are the signs that our fight or flight response has been stimulated (activated)?
When our fight or flight response is activated, sequences of nerve cell firing occur and chemicals like adrenaline, noradrenaline and cortisol are released into our bloodstream. These patterns of nerve cell firing and chemical release cause our body to undergo a series of very dramatic changes. Our respiratory rate increases. Blood is shunted away from our digestive tract and directed into our muscles and limbs, which require extra energy and fuel for running and fighting. Our pupils dilate. Our awareness intensifies. Our sight sharpens. Our impulses quicken. Our perception of pain diminishes. Our immune system mobilizes with increased activation. We become prepared—physically and psychologically—for fight or flight. We scan and search our environment, "looking for the enemy."
When our fight or flight system is activated, we tend to perceive everything in our environment as a possible threat to our survival. By its very nature, the fight or flight system bypasses our rational mind—where our more well thought out beliefs exist—and moves us into "attack" mode. This state of alert causes us to perceive almost everything in our world as a possible threat to our survival. As such, we tend to see everyone and everything as a possible enemy. Like airport security during a terrorist threat, we are on the look out for every possible danger. We may overreact to the slightest comment. Our fear is exaggerated. Our thinking is distorted. We see everything through the filter of possible danger. We narrow our focus to those things that can harm us. Fear becomes the lens through which we see the world.
We can begin to see how it is almost impossible to cultivate positive attitudes and beliefs when we are stuck in survival mode. Our heart is not open. Our rational mind is disengaged. Our consciousness is focused on fear, not love. Making clear choices and recognizing the consequences of those choices is unfeasible. We are focused on short-term survival, not the long-term consequences of our beliefs and choices. When we are overwhelmed with excessive stress, our life becomes a series of short-term emergencies. We lose the ability to relax and enjoy the moment.
Over time many medicated partners will file for divorce. Not realizing the thing that changed was the delicate balance in their brain caused by the drug. Believing with all their heart and soul that they are in control of their feelings and finally doing what they want in their life.
By now you may be thinking if all this is true, then why are they seemingly so happy and content with the new life. The answer to that is simple. It’s because it’s new and never before experienced and because of that it can elicit a Dopamine response when the old ways couldn’t. Not because it’s better, simply because it’s new.
Let’s fast forward just a bit. Now we’ve gotten to this point the excitement of the new life and in some cases the new partner begins to wear off. The shine tarnishes and the spark cools. The drugs are now out of their system and they’ve done some healing and the decisions they made and their current situation don’t make as much sense as they once did. Maybe some feelings that were believed to be gone are beginning to sneak back into the picture.
While just going back and trying to work things out might be the obvious step it isn’t that easy. Even if the person now realizes it was the drugs and most won’t at this point the situation is very complex. Now you have someone that walked away from the people they loved and who loved them but they question why did I leave, why did I think those things are they really how I feel? How do I know that what I feel now is real?
If that isn’t enough there are also feelings of shame, embarrassment, wondering how anyone could forgive what happened. Financial and legal problems health concerns and the list could go on.
If the person returns it will only be after they have completed the necessary journey. For some this may only take a few days and it’s done. For others the journey will be longer with twists and turns that may include divorce and even getting married to someone else. The journey like the little pills that set the whole thing in motion is unpredictable and unique to each individual.
How does a couple overcome all of this?
First both people have to understand it was the drug that caused the behaviors and actions.
For the jilted partner this is simply not the time to let macho or feminist attitudes control your thinking. This is the time to remember your wedding vows. For better or for worse for richer or poorer in sickness and in health. If you were never married but made a commitment, if you really loved the person, the same applies.
How much should you be required to give or how long do you hang on to the hope that the love of your life will return? In my mind the answer is simple, how long would you want them to wait if the situation were reversed? They deserve at least that much time.
Now for those that walked away. Please don’t let pride stand in the way of what could be the best thing to ever happen to you. Consider how much the other person must love you to have fought for your return. Please don’t pass up the chance to be rejoined and happy again. The chance to see how the things you had dreamed of turn out. The chance to dream new dreams together and for life to be better than it has ever been before. I would beg of you to make the contact. Have no doubt that those who loved you before will love you again. By the time it’s gone this far the outcome may be up to you, Please ask.
In many cases there will be no apologies expected no details to relive. In many cases a phone call or email that simply says something like I miss you and want to come home will be more than enough.
Only thing that's hard for me to swallow is "First both people have to understand it was the drug that caused the behaviors and actions" I can see it, but I still say there's at least some other thing to blame, or else, everyone on AD's would cheat, right? I liken this to the "But I was drunk" argument. Sure you were, but *something* else made you act out also, because last time I was drunk, I didn't act out. I in fact never did. But not suprisingly now, I remember being accused of it EVERY time I was. ...= projection? right? I'm still learning a lot on this board, after nearly a year! :P
eta: charlies's a girl, oops :P
[This message edited by smallmouse at 11:50 AM, March 28th (Saturday)]
She's one hell of a writer! ;-)
Anyone else stopping in here feeling like their passive-aggressive WS doesn't fit the description of emotionally unavailable?
Separated, divorcing, moving on.
I edit because I always make typos.
Our conversations are crazy making....
I hunger for a deeper, tender connection...I see gimpses of it now and then, but as soon as he realizes he has lowered the wall, the snottiness comes back....
How can I go on like this?
I can't -- I won't...
Sorry, I just couldn't find any in my skimming through these pages.
Anyone else stopping in here feeling like their passive-aggressive WS doesn't fit the description of emotionally unavailable?
Yes - me - and today, actually!!, so it was nice to see your post. I think I have finally decided that he is E-retarded. I hope that means fixable!?
Seriously - my H didn't have a physical A but surfed lots of reality porn. when I first started reading this thread, I wondered how that fit him ---i f he was EU -- he certainly has many of the traits, but not all. But now I think it is b/c he is E-retarded, not totally unavailable. Could that also be why he chose the porn over a physical A? I am starting to think maybe yes -- but also that maybe the reason he could nothave a phys A is b/c he didn't have the ability to have sufficient emotion to do it?
[This message edited by paticonfused at 4:07 PM, April 3rd (Friday)]
My husband has not been emotionally available for years. He is like having another child in some ways. He is runnig aorund town telling anyone who will listen that I have been so controlling that he had to leave. I may have a dominant personality, but if the man won't step up and be head of the household, don't things still need to get done? He doesn't want to have to take responsibility for anything.
And emotional support when I am hurting... or just need love. Yeah right~ what is that?!!
He has always held everything so deep inside until it explodes. How can I be expected to know what it wrong and try to fix it if he won't talk?
How, when I have been begging for a connection to him can he give this to other women!? I hate him for that!
We went to Retrouveille, and they taught couples the process and theory of "dialoging". While the name is silly, the process is basically setting up a question that both spouses write down, and then separate for 10 minutes to write about how they feel about the feeling they identified in the question. They use a book that was distributed that contains categorized words describing feelings -- about 450 of them. There is a set of questions each has to answer about the feeling in order to try to describe it.
The couple then passes the writing to each other and they each reads the other's answer and then have a short QnA session to ensure the 1 spouse understands how the other spouse feels.
There are quite a few rules about how this is done, but the biggest rule is that the entire point is for 1 spouse to understand how the other feels. No discussion on trying to find out why, NO blaming, etc. And that's it.
Sounds simple but it is actually harder than you think. The good part is that my H seems to now know what a feeling is. And what the difference is between thinking and feeling. And he said he feels like he can write about it, and talk to me about it a bit. (After assuring understanding of your spouse, you quit, or start a discussion). You are supposed to answer a different question every day and they give you lots of possibilities. It only takes 15 to 20 minutes once you get thh hang of it.
Today is only Monday, but so far, this has been the biggest breakthrough for us.
I'm still scared, and would appreciate any advice anyone has on this.