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User Topic: The N.P.D. Thread Part IV
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Default  Posted: 2:03 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Playing catchup. I'm on thread #1, page 27. I started around page 15 to copy /paste various comments to a word document. I have many by sadtoo, cjones, egirl, dreamlife, itsa, stressiere....
It has been good for me to follow your comments. At the same time, it's horrible.
I have been reading for hours. I think I have been damaged with the obsession to fix my NPD partner - and then realizing, through your experiences - that I have just been making myself crazy - and then I say; "Why am I doing this?" I do believe I have been "made" a little crazy by this.
Thing is, I keep going back to the second post on thread #1 by downfall: If you are here, if you were hurt by an N... It is proof in itself of how capable and amazing you are. It's not about being blind, stupid, weak, messed up, crazy, a victim, broken or any such nonsense!! It's because you can give, love, and forgive in a capacity rarely found. Because you are especially attractive, especially good in bed, especially bright, especially funny, especially successful, especially patient. It means you have more of all the good qualities there are.

It's a good start, and it helps to be reminded of that after all the crazy-making that I have had to endure.
I see that most of you are victims of male N's. I don't know how important this may be to your lives, as I am still catching up, but I wanted to say that I think that your stories are making me love you. It's the "fixer" part of me - but - this time, I can see that I'm not pouring my efforts into some insatiable black hole.
Of course, I have to "fix myself" first, but let me tell you that I want to work on letting you know -somehow! - how wonderful I think you all are. From the bottom of my heart - the things you have had to endure, your suffering - I alternate between rage for you: wanting to just CLOCK the monsters that have SO abused such beautiful-souled people -
to wordless hugs.

What I see here are survivors. Honest and unbelievably loving people. My life has been so subsumed by mirrors (they were all over the house- part of the "horror vacui" decor), that it is such an amazing breath of fresh air to realize that, and that gee - I'm part of this?
What a freaking, freaked-out club, eh?
I'm sorry to ramble, I just felt this need to tell you how much you are loved and appreciated - from someone who has " nothing to offer in return" -
It's a new world for me to realize that there are "normal" - quite beautiful - people out there, and I wanted to thank you.

Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 7:10 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yup, fun in N-Land.

WooHoo !!!! What a time !!!! So MUCH FUN !!!!! NOT!

More fun with STBXPDMIL. No doubt in my mind anymore that MIL is whacked (Latin for NPD. LOL.) also. Jee-fucking-pers (Latin again). LOL.
OK. New folks. After awhile and some distance from the N (or Ns, as in FOO) you start to recognize and pick up on the N-Verbage or language so to speak. My stars !!! STBXPDMIL spoke the full N gamut again tonight. Hmmmmmmm.... I'll tell ya, over time and reading the threads you start to see the N-Speak for what it is. BULLSHIT (not Latin).
Projection, blame shifting (motherf**cking Ns can never accept any kind of responsibility), lying, etc. whatfucking ever. Amazing.
It's just so friggin' STOOPID. But kinda fun in a strange way. It gets kinda amusing tripping them up constantly as they constantly talk STOOPID. Sad but still funny. NC is still the best. I really do not ever want to deal with STBXPDW and her STBXPDFOO again. It is such a waste of time. They are just so fucking royally messed up. Useless. I don't particularily enjoy talking to walls that are supposedly human. And they are just plain evil on top of it. Blah, I've got far better things to occupy my time with.
So STBXPDMIL will now be put into the NC or only email list and only concerning the kids. Although I'm thinking that the kids will from now on see their mom's FOO only on STBXPDWs visit times. Pain in the asses.
Any ways all is good. Just thought I'd share tonights silliness with my bud's.



Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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Default  Posted: 7:23 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had a violent winter storm & I got an e-mail from my N saying that he would come home, but I won't LET him.

Jeeeez, I had no idea I was that powerful!

Again, he has re-written our marital history & twisted everything which led up to my asking him to leave nearly 2 years ago.

Damn, I hate that POS!

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Default  Posted: 7:30 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Dream))) He can go sleep outside in a cardboard box over by the railroad tacks on the other side of town in the city two states over. LOL.


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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Default  Posted: 7:36 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

oh, how I wish, BoB.

What a Mind Fucking PIG who is always The Victim. UG

jjct, it really helped to read what you posted.

Thanks to you & BoB.

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 8:02 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LOL. Forgot about this song !!!
Creep by Radiohead
When you were here before,
Couldn't look you in the eye
You're just like an angel,
Your skin makes me cry

You float like a feather
In a beautiful world
I wish I was special
You're so fucking special

But I'm a creep,
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doin' here?
I don't belong here

I don't care if it hurts,
I wanna have control
I want a perfect body
I want a perfect soul

I want you to notice
when I'm not around
You're so fucking special
I wish I was special

But I'm a creep
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doin' here?
I don't belong here, ohhhh, ohhhh

She's running out the door
She's running out
She run run run run...

Whatever makes you happy
Whatever you want
You're so fucking special
I wish I was special

But I'm a creep,
I'm a weirdo
What the hell am I doin' here?
I don't belong here

I don't belong here...


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 10:28 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WOW !!!
This book was mentioned and quoted a bunch on Anna's site:

Here are two links to below:

Here is a download to the book:

(I don't know if the above download is legal.)
Dealing With Manipulative People

An Excerpt from the book: In Sheep's Clothing
By George K. Simon

Two Basic Types of Aggression

There are two basic types of aggression: overt-aggression and covert-aggression. When you're determined to have something and you're open, direct and obvious in your manner of fighting, your behavior is best labeled overtly aggressive. When you're out to "win," dominate or control, but are subtle, underhanded or deceptive enough to hide your true intentions, your behavior is most appropriately labeled covertly aggressive. Now, avoiding any overt display of aggression while simultaneously intimidating others into giving you what you want is a powerfully manipulative maneuver. That's why covert-aggression is most often the vehicle for interpersonal manipulation.

Acts of Covert-Aggression vs. Covert-Aggressive Personalities

Most of us have engaged in some sort of covertly aggressive behavior from time to time. Periodically trying to manipulate a person or a situation doesn't make someone a covert-aggressive personality. Personality can be defined by the way a person habitually perceives, relates to and interacts with others and the world at large.

The tactics of deceit, manipulation and control are a steady diet for covert-aggressive personality. It's the way they prefer to deal with others and to get the things they want in life.

The Process of Victimization

For a long time, I wondered why manipulation victims have a hard time seeing what really goes on in manipulative interactions. At first, I was tempted to fault them. But I've learned that they get hoodwinked for some very good reasons:

A manipulator's aggression is not obvious. Our gut may tell us that they're fighting for something, struggling to overcome us, gain power, or have their way, and we find ourselves unconsciously on the defensive. But because we can't point to clear, objective evidence they're aggressing against us, we can't readily validate our feelings.
The tactics manipulators use can make it seem like they're hurting, caring, defending, ..., almost anything but fighting. These tactics are hard to recognize as merely clever ploys. They always make just enough sense to make a person doubt their gut hunch that they're being taken advantage of or abused. Besides, the tactics not only make it hard for you to consciously and objectively tell that a manipulator is fighting, but they also simultaneously keep you or consciously on the defensive. These features make them highly effective psychological weapons to which anyone can be vulnerable. It's hard to think clearly when someone has you emotionally on the run.
All of us have weaknesses and insecurities that a clever manipulator might exploit. Sometimes, we're aware of these weaknesses and how someone might use them to take advantage of us. For example, I hear parents say things like: "Yeah, I know I have a big guilt button." – But at the time their manipulative child is busily pushing that button, they can easily forget what's really going on. Besides, sometimes we're unaware of our biggest vulnerabilities. Manipulators often know us better than we know ourselves. They know what buttons to push, when and how hard. Our lack of self-knowledge sets us up to be exploited.
What our gut tells us a manipulator is like, challenges everything we've been taught to believe about human nature. We've been inundated with a psychology that has us seeing everybody, at least to some degree, as afraid, insecure or "hung-up." So, while our gut tells us we're dealing with a ruthless conniver, our head tells us they must be really frightened or wounded "underneath." What's more, most of us generally hate to think of ourselves as callous and insensitive people. We hesitate to make harsh or seemingly negative judgments about others. We want to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't really harbor the malevolent intentions we suspect. We're more apt to doubt and blame ourselves for daring to believe what our gut tells us about our manipulator's character.
Recognizing Aggressive Agendas

Accepting how fundamental it is for people to fight for the things they want and becoming more aware of the subtle, underhanded ways people can and do fight in their daily endeavors and relationships can be very consciousness expanding. Learning to recognize an aggressive move when somebody makes one and learning how to handle oneself in any of life's many battles, has turned out to be the most empowering experience for the manipulation victims with whom I've worked. It's how they eventually freed themselves from their manipulator's dominance and control and gained a much needed boost to their own sense of self esteem. Recognizing the inherent aggression in manipulative behavior and becoming more aware of the slick, surreptitious ways that manipulative people prefer to aggress against us is extremely important. Not recognizing and accurately labeling their subtly aggressive moves causes most people to misinterpret the behavior of manipulators and, therefore, fail to respond to them in an appropriate fashion. Recognizing when and how manipulators are fighting with covertly aggressive tactics is essential.

Defense Mechanisms and Offensive Tactics

Almost everyone is familiar with the term defense mechanism. Defense mechanisms are the "automatic" (i.e. unconscious) mental behaviors all of us employ to protect or defend ourselves from the "threat" of some emotional pain. More specifically, ego defense mechanisms are mental behaviors we use to "defend" our self-images from "invitations" to feel ashamed or guilty about something. There are many different kinds of ego defenses and the more traditional (psychodynamic) theories of personality have always tended to distinguish the various personality types, at least in part, by the types of ego defenses they prefer to use. One of the problems with psychodynamic approaches to understanding human behavior is that they tend to depict people as most always afraid of something and defending or protecting themselves in some way; even when they're in the act of aggressing. Covert-aggressive personalities (indeed all aggressive personalities) use a variety of mental behaviors and interpersonal maneuvers to help ensure they get what they want. Some of these behaviors have been traditionally thought of as defense mechanisms.

While, from a certain perspective we might say someone engaging in these behaviors is defending their ego from any sense of shame or guilt, it's important to realize that at the time the aggressor is exhibiting these behaviors, he is not primarily defending (i.e. attempting to prevent some internally painful event from occurring), but rather fighting to maintain position, gain power and to remove any obstacles (both internal and external) in the way of getting what he wants. Seeing the aggressor as on the defensive in any sense is a set-up for victimization. Recognizing that they're primarily on the offensive, mentally prepares a person for the decisive action they need to take in order to avoid being run over. Therefore, I think it's best to conceptualize many of the mental behaviors (no matter how "automatic" or "unconscious" they may appear) we often think of as defense mechanisms, as offensive power tactics, because aggressive personalities employ them primarily to manipulate, control and achieve dominance over others. Rather than trying to prevent something emotionally painful or dreadful from happening, anyone using these tactics is primarily trying to ensure that something they want to happen does indeed happen. Using the vignettes presented in the previous chapters for illustration, let's take a look at the principal tactics covert-aggressive personalities use to ensure they get their way and maintain a position of power over their victims:

Denial – This is when the aggressor refuses to admit that they've done something harmful or hurtful when they clearly have. It's a way they lie (to themselves as well as to others) about their aggressive intentions. This "Who... Me?" tactic is a way of "playing innocent," and invites the victim to feel unjustified in confronting the aggressor about the inappropriateness of a behavior. It's also the way the aggressor gives him/herself permission to keep right on doing what they want to do. This denial is not the same kind of denial that a person who has just lost a loved one and can't quite bear to accept the pain and reality of the loss engages in. That type of denial really is mostly a "defense" against unbearable hurt and anxiety. Rather, this type of denial is not primarily a "defense" but a maneuver the aggressor uses to get others to back off, back down or maybe even feel guilty themselves for insinuating he's doing something wrong.

In the story of James the minister, James' denial of his ruthless ambition is massive. He denied he was hurting and neglecting his family. He especially denied he was aggressively pursuing any personal agenda. On the contrary, he cast himself as the humble servant to a honorable cause. He managed to convince several people (and maybe even himself) of the nobility and purity of his intentions. But underneath it all, James knew he was being dishonest: This fact is borne out in his reaction to the threat of not getting a seat on the Elders' Council if his marital problems worsened. When James learned he might not get what he was so aggressively pursuing after all, he had an interesting "conversion" experience. All of a sudden, he decided he could put aside the Lord's bidding for a weekend and he might really need to devote more time to his marriage and family. James' eyes weren't opened by the pastor's words. He always kept his awareness high about what might hinder or advance his cause. He knew if he didn't tend to his marriage he might lose what he really wanted. So, he chose (at least temporarily) to alter course.

In the story of Joe and Mary, Mary confronted Joe several times about what she felt was insensitivity and ruthlessness on his part in his treatment of Lisa. Joe denied his aggressiveness. He also successfully convinced Mary that what she felt in her gut was his aggressiveness was really conscientiousness, loyalty, and passionate fatherly concern. Joe wanted a daughter who got all A's. Mary stood in the way. Joe's denial was the tactic he used to remove Mary as an obstacle to what he wanted.

Selective Inattention – This tactic is similar to and sometimes mistaken for denial It's when the aggressor "plays dumb," or acts oblivious. When engaging in this tactic, the aggressor actively ignores the warnings, pleas or wishes of others, and in general, refuses to pay attention to everything and anything that might distract them from pursuing their own agenda. Often, the aggressor knows full well what you want from him when he starts to exhibit this "I don't want to hear it!" behavior. By using this tactic, the aggressor actively resists submitting himself to the tasks of paying attention to or refraining from the behavior you want him to change. In the story of Jenny and Amanda, Jenny tried to tell Amanda she was losing privileges because she was behaving irresponsibly. But Amanda wouldn't listen. Her teachers tried to tell her what she needed to do to improve her grade: but she didn't listen to them either. Actively listening to and heeding the suggestions of someone else are, among other things, acts of submission. And, as you may remember from the story, Amanda is not a girl who submits easily. Determined to let nothing stand in her way and convinced she could eventually "win" most of her power struggles with authority figures through manipulation, Amanda closed her ears. She didn't see any need to listen. From her point of view, she would only have lost some power and control if she submitted herself to the guidance and direction offered by those whom she views as less powerful, clever and capable as herself.

Rationalization – A rationalization is the excuse an aggressor tries to offer for engaging in an inappropriate or harmful behavior. It can be an effective tactic, especially when the explanation or justification the aggressor offers makes just enough sense that any reasonably conscientious person is likely to fall for it. It's a powerful tactic because it not only serves to remove any internal resistance the aggressor might have about doing what he wants to do (quieting any qualms of conscience he might have) but also to keep others off his back. If the aggressor can convince you he's justified in whatever he's doing, then he's freer to pursue his goals without interference.

In the story of little Lisa, Mary felt uneasy about the relentlessness with which Joe pursued his quest to make his daughter an obedient, all-A student once again. And, she was aware of Lisa's expressed desire to pursue counseling as a means of addressing and perhaps solving some of her problems. Although Mary felt uneasy about Joe's forcefulness and sensed the impact on her daughter, she allowed herself to become persuaded by his rationalizations that any concerned parent ought to know his daughter better than some relatively dispassionate outsider and that he was only doing his duty by doing as much as he possibly could to "help" his "little girl." When a manipulator really wants to make headway with their rationalizations they'll be sure their excuses are combined with other effective tactics. For example, when Joe was "selling" Mary on the justification for shoving his agenda down everyone's throat he was also sending out subtle invitations for her to feel ashamed (shaming her for not being as "concerned" a parent as he was) as well as making her feel guilty (guilt-tripping her) for not being as conscientious as he was pretending to be.

Diversion – A moving target is hard to hit. When we try to pin a manipulator down or try to keep a discussion focused on a single issue or behavior we don't like, he's expert at knowing how to change the subject, dodge the issue or in some way throw us a curve. Manipulators use distraction and diversion techniques to keep the focus off their behavior, move us off-track, and keep themselves free to promote their self-serving hidden agendas.

Rather than respond directly to the issue being addressed, Amanda diverted attention to her teacher's and classmates' treatment of her. Jenny allowed Amanda to steer her off track. She never got a straight answer to the question.

Another example of a diversion tactic can be found in the story of Don and Al. Al changed the subject when Don asked him if he had any plans to replace him. He focused on whether he was unhappy or not with Don's sales performance – as if that's what Don had asked him about in the first place. He never gave Don a straight answer to a straight question (manipulators are notorious for this). He told him what he thought would make Don feel less anxious and would steer him away from pursuing the matter any further. Al left feeling like he'd gotten an answer but all he really got was the "runaround."

Early in the current school year, I found it necessary to address my son's irresponsibility about doing his homework by making a rule that he bring his books home every night. One time I asked: "Did you bring your books home today?" His response was: "Guess what, Dad. Instead of tomorrow, we're not going to have our test – until Friday." My question was simple and direct. His answer was deliberately evasive and diversionary. He knew that if he answered the question directly and honestly, he would have received a consequence for failing to bring his books home. By using diversion (and also offering a rationalization) he was already fighting with me to avoid that consequence. Whenever someone is not responding directly to an issue, you can safely assume that for some reason, they're trying to give you the slip.

Lying – It's often hard to tell when a person is lying at the time he's doing it. Fortunately, there are times when the truth will out because circumstances don't bear out somebody's story. But there are also times when you don't know you've been deceived until it's too late. One way to minimize the chances that someone will put one over on you is to remember that because aggressive personalities of all types will generally stop at nothing to get what they want, you can expect them to lie and cheat. Another thing to remember is that manipulators – covert-aggressive personalities that they are – are prone to lie in subtle, covert ways. Courts are well aware of the many ways that people lie, as they require that court oaths charge that testifiers tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." Manipulators often lie by withholding a significant amount of the truth from you or by distorting the truth. They are adept at being vague when you ask them direct questions. This is an especially slick way of lying' omission. Keep this in mind when dealing with a suspected wolf in sheep's clothing. Always seek and obtain specific, confirmable information.

Covert Intimidation – Aggressors frequently threaten their victims to keep them anxious, apprehensive and in a one-down position. Covert-aggressives intimidate their victims by making veiled (subtle, indirect or implied) threats. Guilt-tripping and shaming are two of the covert-aggressive's favourite weapons. Both are special intimidation tactics.

Guilt-tripping – One thing that aggressive personalities know well is that other types of persons have very different consciences than they do. Manipulators are often skilled at using what they know to be the greater conscientiousness of their victims as a means of keeping them in a self-doubting, anxious, and submissive position. The more conscientious the potential victim, the more effective guilt is as a weapon. Aggressive personalities of all types use guilt-tripping so frequently and effectively as a manipulative tactic, that I believe it illustrates how fundamentally different in character they are compared to other (especially neurotic) personalities. All a manipulator has to do is suggest to the conscientious person that they don't care enough, are too selfish, etc., and that person immediately starts to feel bad. On the contrary, a conscientious person might try until they're blue in the face to get a manipulator (or any other aggressive personality) to feel badly about a hurtful behavior, acknowledge responsibility, or admit wrongdoing, to absolutely no avail.

Shaming – This is the technique of using subtle sarcasm and put-downs as a means of increasing fear and self-doubt in others. Covert-aggressives use this tactic to make others feel inadequate or unworthy, and therefore, defer to them. It's an effective way to foster a continued sense of personal inadequacy in the weaker party, thereby allowing an aggressor to maintain a position of dominance.

When Joe loudly proclaimed any "good" parent would do just as he was doing to help Lisa, he subtly implied Mary would be a "bad" parent if she didn't attempt to do the same. He "invited" her to feel ashamed of herself. The tactic was effective. Mary eventually felt ashamed for taking a position that made it appear she didn't care enough about her own daughter. Even more doubtful of her worth as a person and a parent, Mary deferred to Joe, thus enabling him to rein a position of dominance over her. Covert-aggressives are expert at using shaming tactics in the most subtle ways. Sometimes it can just be in the glances they give or the tone of voice they use. Using rhetorical comments, subtle sarcasm and other techniques, they can invite you to feel ashamed of yourself for even daring to challenge them. Joe tried to shame Mary when I considered accepting the educational assessment performed by Lisa's school. He said something like: "I'm not sure what kind of doctor you are or just what kind of credentials you have, but I'm sure you'd agree that a youngster's grades wouldn't slip as much as Lisa's for no reason. You couldn't be entirely certain she didn't have a learning disability unless you did some testing, could you?' With those words, he "invited" Mary to feel ashamed of herself for not at least considering doing just as he asked. If Mary didn't have a suspicion about what he was up to, she might have accepted this invitation without a second thought.

Playing the Victim Role – This tactic involves portraying oneself as an innocent victim of circumstances or someone else's behavior in order to gain sympathy, evoke compassion and thereby get something from another. One thing that covert-aggressive personalities count on is the fact that less calloused and less hostile personalities usually can't stand to see anyone suffering. Therefore, the tactic is simple. Convince your victim you're suffering in some way, and they'll try to relieve your distress.

In the story of Amanda and Jenny, Amanda was good at playing the victim role too. She had her mother believing that she (Amanda) was the victim of extremely unfair treatment and the target of unwarranted hostility. I remember Jenny telling me: "Sometimes I think Amanda's wrong when she says her teacher hates her and I hate her. But what if that's what she really believes? Can I afford to be so firm with her if she believes in her heart that I hate her?" I remember telling Jenny: "Whether Amanda has come to believe her own distortions is almost irrelevant. She manipulates you because you believe that she believes it and allow that supposed belief to serve as an excuse for her undisciplined aggression."

Vilifying the Victim – This tactic is frequently used in conjunction with the tactic of playing the victim role. The aggressor uses this tactic to make it appear he is only responding (i.e. defending himself against) aggression on the part of the victim. It enables the aggressor to better put the victim on the defensive.

Returning again to the story of Jenny and Amanda, when Amanda accuses her mother of "hating" her and "always saying mean things" to her, she not only invites Jenny to feel the "bully," but simultaneously succeeds in "bullying" Jenny into backing off. More than any other, the tactic of vilifying the victim is a powerful means of putting someone unconsciously on the defensive while simultaneously masking the aggressive intent and behavior of the person using the tactic.

Playing the Servant Role – Covert-aggressives use this tactic to cloak their self-serving agendas in the guise of service to a more noble cause. It's a common tactic but difficult to recognize. By pretending to be working hard on someone else's behalf, covert-aggressives conceal their own ambition, desire for power, and quest for a position of dominance over others. In the story of James (the minister) and Sean, James appeared to many to be the tireless servant. He attended more activities than he needed to attend and did so eagerly. But if devoted service to those who needed him was his aim, how does one explain the degree to which James habitually neglected his family? As an aggressive personality, James submits himself to no one. The only master he serves is his own ambition. Not only was playing the servant role an effective tactic for James, but also it's the cornerstone upon which corrupt ministerial empires of all types are built. A good example comes to mind in the recent true story of a well-known tele-evangelist who locked himself up in a room in a purported display of "obedience" and "service" to God. He even portrayed himself' a willing sacrificial lamb who was prepared to be "taken by God" if he didn't do the Almighty's bidding and raise eight million dollars. He claimed he was a humble servant, merely heeding the Lord's will. He was really fighting to save his substantial material empire.

Another recent scandal involving a tele-evangelist resulted in his church's governance body censuring him for one year. But he told his congregation he couldn't stop his ministry because he had to be faithful to the Lord's will (God supposedly talked to him and told him not to quit). This minister was clearly being defiant of his church's established authority. Yet, he presented himself as a person being humbly submissive to the "highest" authority. One hallmark characteristic of covert-aggressive personalities is loudly professing subservience while fighting for dominance.

Seduction – Covert-aggressive personalities are adept at charming, praising, flattering or overtly supporting others in order to get them to lower their defenses and surrender their trust and loyalty. Covert-aggressives are also particularly aware that people who are to some extent emotionally needy and dependent (and that includes most people who aren't character-disordered) want approval, reassurance, and a sense of being valued and needed more than anything. Appearing to be attentive to these needs can be a manipulator's ticket to incredible power over others. Shady "gurus" like Jim Jones and David Koresh seemed to have refined this tactic to an art. In the story of Al and Don, Al is the consummate seducer. He melts any resistance you might have to giving him your loyalty and confidence. He does this by giving you what he knows you need most. He knows you want to feel valued and important. So, he often tells you that you are. You don't find out how unimportant you really are to him until you turn out to be in his way.

Projecting the blame (blaming others) – Aggressive personalities are always looking for a way to shift the blame for their aggressive behavior. Covert-aggressives are not only skilled at finding scapegoats, they're expert at doing so in subtle, hard to detect ways.

Minimization – This tactic is a unique kind of denial coupled with rationalization. When using this maneuver, the aggressor is attempting to assert that his abusive behavior isn't really as harmful or irresponsible as someone else may be claiming. It's the aggressor's attempt to make a molehill out of a mountain.

I've presented the principal tactics that covert-aggressives use to manipulate and control others. They are not always easy to recognize. Although all aggressive personalities tend to use these tactics, covert-aggressives generally use them slickly, subtly and adeptly. Anyone dealing with a covertly aggressive person will need to heighten gut-level sensitivity to the use of these tactics if they're to avoid being taken in by them.


[This message edited by bobelina at 10:30 PM, January 5th (Saturday)]

Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 10:38 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow!!! I googled "Mind Fuck"...great fodder there!

I found Heartless Bitches!

As in "Deal with it"...what my N used to moan & groan his XW used to snap @ him as she turned & walked out the door.

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
♀ Member
Member # 10617
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi kids...just droppin by to say "hi" and I think of you all every single day.

I've just completed my entire disseration-length divorce papers.

I am meeting with a lawyer next week to review and revise them. I will file either later next week or the following week.

We're in the same house, so I'll be taking appropriate measures.

This should prove *interesting* at the very least.

Living in a 50/50 State, even though the grounds can only be 'no-fault', we will be splitting stuff purchased during the marriage. I have sacrificed FAR too much to this assclown. And get this ~ he will probably NOT retain an attorney, because it would cost him $$. I truly believe that he would rather settle than spend any of his precious money on an attorney.

He doesn't have much money either, at least not enough to retain an attorney. He spends EVERY dime he gets on some frivolous "toy" that he deserves.

Just wanted to let you all know I think of you every single day, and a lot of what I have learned here has carried over into the divorce 'procedures.' That is, I'm completely aware of how cut and dried everything MUST be!!

((hugs)) for everyone!!

EDITED as I get closer to 'homeland security lockdown'

[This message edited by cjonesjag at 5:51 PM, January 6th (Sunday)]

Me (BS):50
Him(WTFH):51 Married: 05/26/2002
DD#1: 09/2005 (EA) DD#2: 09/2006
Mini-DDays: Many. Mostly online
DIVORCED 10/20/10
It's not what you've got, it's what you give.
It ain't the life you choose, it's the life you live

Posts: 6400 | Registered: May 2006 | From: Michigan
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Default  Posted: 11:20 PM, January 5th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Awesome !!!
...But I'm (as others) scared for your safety. The gun thing scares the poop out of me (and that could get stinky. LOL.) Pleae, please, please have a plan of action. OK?

Oh, yeah. After all the shit (Latin) that he's put you thru, get that FUCKER !!! (Not Latin. LOL). Wish you safety and a "Win".


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jonesie, you have a PM.

“If you don't like my opinion of you, you can always improve.” ~ Ashleigh Brilliant
"Great love requires determination." ~ tryingtwo
"Don't try to win over the haters, you're not the jackass whisperer." ~ Brene Brown

Posts: 14039 | Registered: Jun 2003 | From: Middle-of-Diddly, TX
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Member # 17083
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dream -- I found the Heartless Bitches website too, and thought this list described my STBXN to a *T*:

My STBXN keeps telling me he is going to help me with our financial hell. And he's been dragging his feet ever since he's made that statement. Not to mention the fact that when I start making my own decisions about the finances -- he makes it sound like he was *planning* to help, but that *I* acted too quickly. WTF?!

I want to print out a copy of the list and mail it to OW. Not that she would believe me or anything that was written. She's so wrapped up in him, it's pathetic. I want to send her a thank you card, too -- for waking me up and allowing me to see the truth about my marriage.

Take care ya'll! Hope everyone is enjoying their gumbo! All the gumbo talk makes me want to fly out to New Orleans...

Me BW 36 Him WH/XH 32
DD - 4 y/o; DSS 11 y/o
M 4yrs/ Together 8
D-day#1/2 - Sept. 2007, Nov. 2007
Divorced 4/08

Posts: 156 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Florida
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Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


It sounds like you have this all very well thought out. It sucks that the only way to a normal life again is to go through this. But you can do it.

Be really careful after you file and he gets the papers. He will most likely be enraged.

Remember, even *if* it's marital property or even YOUR stuff, his perception may be completely different. He most likely won't want to split things in a fair manner, nor will he see the errors of his ways. He may feel that this is ALL YOUR fault and it will ALL be HIS stuff and you should be thrown out of the house with nothing.

Due to his history of violence, please be extremely careful.

I'm thinking of you.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 11:35 AM, January 6th (Sunday)]

It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)

Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
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Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bravo, cj!

Been thinking about you.

Loaded guns & N rage at having been *skewered* in a D can be really bad!
I hope you can at least stay elsewhere for the duration...or just turn the damned gun into the cops or drop it down a manhole.
Keep us posted.

jane~ isn't HB such a cool site?
Yeah, describes my smooth "mirroring" N to a "T" as well.
I also felt like *thanking* the OW but wasn't sure if I had gone off the deep end or what.
Leave the North Pole & have some gumbo here in fact, everyone, C'mon over!

My N is gonna be super-pissed, too, w/ my response, but he does not live with me nor own a gun & if he did, I'd have to *get away*/kick him OUT-- just for safety's sake. He keeps trying to twist things which I won't fucking allow (hehehe)& I sent him an early 2003 e-mail he'd written to me where he was already LYING & saying how un-techlike he was...well, I believed it back then but sure know better now!

[This message edited by dreamlife at 12:32 PM, January 6th (Sunday)]

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Default  Posted: 2:08 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ok - checking in....

This is strange, weird, funny...
1st - I'm actually "getting to know you" - but at the same time, this is stuff from what? June/ July '07?

You've all changed since then,(meaning: gotten further healing) though I'm not caught up with you yet....

So when I was reading about your struggles with "validation" (lack of, that is!) I remembered that I had pasted this to my NPD file. Perhaps it can serve as a helpful reminder? Vaknin:
The most critical element in the arduous process of post-traumatic healing is VALIDATION. The harrowing experiences of the victim need to be acknowledged and the victim must be embraced ("mirrored" and "held"). IT IS THE DENIAL OF THE VICTIM'S ORDEAL THAT DOES MOST DAMAGE - FAR MORE THAN THE TRAUMA ITSELF!!!
Healing time is considerably reduced with validation - REGARDLESS OF WHO DOES THE VALIDATING (therapist, good friend, family, colleague, neighbor). Alas, few therapists are sufficiently empathetic and knowledgeable to be of meaningful and long-term help. Moreover, society at large is antithetic to the victim's inevitable demands of compassion and resources. The therapist often reflects the community's recoil.

Page 39 of NPD thread #1 is where I'm referring to.
I have to go for a bit to catch up on some paperwork, because I've been neglecting it due to my own PTSD, and spending hours and hours here - reading.

You guys are a lifeline. With GREAT gratefulness, I thank you!

[This message edited by jjct at 2:10 PM, January 6th (Sunday)]

Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
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Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

For even earlier reading, here is a link to one of the original threads before the "I can relate" forum was made.

Dday June 16 2005: Separated 2/06 Divorced 3/09

Ah, but she can't take you any way
You don't already know how to go ~ Eagles

Posts: 3048 | Registered: Jun 2005
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Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ns suck:
STBXPDMIL was between STBXPDW&STBXPDSIL joint duplex this weekend (that STBXPDMIL owns). STBXPDMIL was there to babysit kids. Mine did not stay there overnite. Had verbal altercation with STBXPDMIL lastnite, AGAIN, about the things she keeps saying to kids, her trying to overrule my parental authority etc. etc.

STBXPDW, STBXPDMIL & STBXPDSIL all keep saying to DD13&8 things such as:
Why do you think you live at your Dad's house? Cause your stuff is there?
You don't live with your Dad, you live here with (your) mom. Etc.

And the usual snide comments, including:
Why do you want to go to your Dad's? It's boring over there. Etc.

STBXPDW and STBXPDMIL have both been told that this is neither acceptable nor proper behavior on their parts, including YESTERDAY to STBXPDMIL. It never fucking ends.

Anybody find any one way tickets to the moon yet? LOL.


ETA:Yes. I intentially did not capitalize the word "mom". I do not believe that that word used in reference to STBXPDW warrants the respect due a properly functioning Mom, that she clearly is not. LOL

Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
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Default  Posted: 10:42 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Bob that is just horrific that they are trying to convince the kids that they are not living with you etc.

The kids know who they can count on. Home is where the heart is. Having stuff there helps too but clearly their heart is with you and not in the den of crazyness.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.

A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.

Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
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Default  Posted: 10:48 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BoB, agree with lied2.

Does she have a problem with alcohol/drugs? It seemed that she had a buncha dysfunctional going on if I recall correctly.

Being an N is bad enough without all the extra nutty stuffs.

(((((huge hugs)))))

~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 11:36 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks. Her FOO is the most dysfunctional, alchohol and substance abusing PD bunch of folks I've ever met. (And I have spent the last 25 years working in the music biz !!!).
And then there is the DENIAL. Listening to family lore, this abuse is pervasive thruout the family tree and across generations.
STBXPDW was very heavy into the drinking and was snorting coke again. I'm not sure what she does now or to what extent. The kids report a lot of beer and wine in the house and that they find it hidden around the house and trash. And lots of cig butts. She kept telling them she didn't smoke. They asked me and I said "Yes" (Kids know that I smoke, even though I do not smoke infront of them).
So STBXPDMIL was apparently watching STBXPDWs nieces last nite DRINKING. Nothing new there. That is why my DDs do not stay overnite with any of the ILs. She was watching a 1 1/2 year old and, I kid you not, a PD 7 year old. The 7 yr old is one of the most evil little fuckers I've ever seen in my life. Just like her fucked up dad, the idiot I refer to as BIL next door at STBXPDW. He's not married to SIL but has 2 kids with her and 3 with 3 other women. He's an asshole HPD. Really. He is HPD to the freakin' max. Both my SIL seem to be in the HPD realm.
I've talked to the Buddhist/Thearipist about this. I asked is it possible that there could be these many (literaly most all members of the family immediate and extended and friends too) with PDs and abuse in the same bunch? (I'm thinking I'm nuts noticing this much bullshit dysfunction in the family and friends). And he says to me, "Yes". ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Christian/Lifecoach/Pastor/Counselor said the same thing, "Yes". ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!...

My Friends, My (((Tribe))), apparently, not only are there "Monsters" out there, but there are "Families/Clans of Monsters".

Ahhhhhhhgggggggggggg!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! LOL.

Imagine that: IT NEVER FUCKING ENDS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL.

Hope all are well.

Just read somemore stuff over at Heartless Bitches. AWESOME STUFF !!!!!!!!! Highly recommended. Thanks again (((Dreamy))) for bringing it up.


ETA: I just read this again:
Bob that is just horrific that they are trying to convince the kids that they are not living with you etc."

Oh, boy. I didn't quite see it that way. Oh, my fucking stars !!!!

I saw STBXPDW/MIL/SIL as being "assholes". Now I'm seeing STBXPDW/MIL/SIL as being manipulative and gaslighting. Thank you (((Lied))), for opening my eyes up a bit more.

[This message edited by bobelina at 12:47 AM, January 7th (Monday)]

Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

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