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User Topic: The N.P.D. Thread Part IV
cjonesjag
♀ Member
Member # 10617
Default  Posted: 7:52 PM, December 27th (Thursday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((Dragonfly)) gawd..what an angry, immature, self-centered, DICK. OMG, I'm so sorry for what you must be feeling.

Be strong for your kids ~ some day they will REFUSE to even speak to him. They will always know that you were the "rock" they could count on.

((hugs))..I just can't imagine..


Me (BS):50
Him(WTFH):51 Married: 05/26/2002
DD#1: 09/2005 (EA) DD#2: 09/2006
Mini-DDays: Many. Mostly online
DIVORCED 10/20/10
It's not what you've got, it's what you give.
It ain't the life you choose, it's the life you live

Posts: 6400 | Registered: May 2006 | From: Michigan
lied2
♀ Member
Member # 1807
Default  Posted: 10:58 PM, December 27th (Thursday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

the CS envelope had a self-made stamp with a picture of my boys and the OW

That is one of the sickest things I have heard yet. I am so sorry.


The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It is astro turf.

The essence of love is not what we think or do or provide for others, but how much we give of ourselves.


A clean house is the sign of a broken computer.


Posts: 8196 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Ontario, Canada
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 12:43 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OMG, Dragonfly!

Can you make a police report about *all* of what transpired?

(((((huge hugs, sweetie)))))

Hang in there!

Yes, kt, totally a Mind Fuck of a *chess game*!
Cannot say much more right now...my N Lurker Alert.


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
itsabattle
♀ Member
Member # 13036
Default  Posted: 2:40 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dragon - this is definitely emotional abuse of the kids. But like in the UK there is very little you can do legally. In the UK the kids have to be at least eleven before the courts would listen to their point of view.
It breaks your heart doesn't it?
All you can do at the moment is log everything and be there for the kids. I have to say I don't like the idea of your kid crying before he had to go and visit. Can you get social services involved at all?
As for the stamp? Total and utter lunacy!

Cj - I did a similar thing to you so that I could distance myself from the freak. However, I did not realise WHAT he was until he had been gone for three months. You are doing so well. Do you have any idea when you will be free and no longer sharing the same air space as the lunatic?

My ex dropped off the kids yesterday after their time with him. They later said that they had a better time with me at christmas! As I am so shallow I found this to be rather pleasing!!
Now how is this for bizarre behaviour? He came in and asked to look at my fence??? I think he is obsessed by all of the improvements I am making to the house!!
Then he went onto tell me how little money he had which is why he hadn't given me any maintainance this month as he had spent it on christmas presents!! He is totally obsessed with money and I also think he is a little obsessed with me??!!!
He is always so very interested in what I am doing etc. I know it is all about control and I am one of his "old" toys but this is getting quite strange. He has no concept of boundries. It is very very difficult to keep putting the boundries up. Freak.

Have a restful day my friends.


Posts: 1233 | Registered: Dec 2006 | From: england
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 7:33 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK dipping my toe in:
I'm reading the NPD thread, #1, and itsabattle said:
"It almost seems that the more we find we have in common the worse it feels."

I'm kind of worried about myself, here, because I am very much feeling that way too.
I am going to keep reading, in the hope that I can figure out how to deal with this, but what's happening right now is that I think I am depressed, sad, because although my mind "sees" the "somatic NPD" WW, my heart is just not able to break away.
Could it be my OWN - what? - addiction to her sexuality? I mean, even though I have some space - thank G-d! (having just rented a place of my own, many miles from her) - and will not let her know the address because honestly- I am afraid - and then we're "not supposed to" let them know that we're afraid (blew that one! - as that has been the primary reason I keep telling her in response to her insistent demands for disclosure).
As long as I am being honest - I think the sexual glue of the relationship - is what I want to most get over. It has been my experience that, sexually, it has been like disneyland for me - and I think that is what I am afraid to leave.
I think I need help because I see that my relationship with her has changed me in the sense of no longer "being strong" (enough to say "no" to her).
It is the fear that I won't ever be with someone as arousing ever again - especially since the "fun glue", the sexual part, was "all that AND a bag of chips".
I'm being honest here, I've read 2X4 comments - so I would ask ahead of time that if you want to swing one in my direction, to please swing softly.
I'm hurting pretty bad, and can't find the motivation to do the paperwork I need to at my job (sign of anger, depression I suppose - with a bit of self-sabotage too).
I just need help to get away from my desire for her, because I see what she is - I just haven't made the full transition to objectivity, emotional separation, indifference that I need to in order to "move on".
I hope to own my own stuff, that's why I'm asking for help, and trying to be honest here. Something inside me is broken or breaking, and I can't seem to fix it. I know about "get counseling" - haven't done it for myself yet. In fact, I arranged for a IC for her - and guess what? - yep! She's got him bamboozled - and if it's not a lie, she say's he has told her to leave the relationship bc of MY abuse!
Imagine that!
Sometimes it seems that no one (except you guys, really)
REALLY understand.
Thanks for at least having a place where I can say these things.


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 8:43 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I did this also. Not a great time period in my life. I found myself, as a empathetic person, trying to imagine what it would take to say/do the things he did. Putting yourself in the position of the N is not something I would suggest for anyone. Sometimes you just get in too deep. But it does/did help me to detach and is a useful reminder to me of what it is I'm dealing with.

I probably should have been clearer - the incidents that I went over and over were ones that stuck out as "off". Ones where "it seemed like he was as upset as I was, but something wasn't right".

These incidents kept popping up in my head on me, over and over again, until I could figure out each one. I'll never know what is going on in his head, thank gawd, but it does help to know why my actions were 1) appropriate and 2) actually worked in that situation.

Another example: we got into another fight one evening. I had gotten home from work (he was off all day) after having picked up our oldest. I was pregnant with our second. I started immediately making dinner, and asked ex to unload the dishwasher so that I could load the dirty dishes as I made them. What is that, a two minute chore? His response:

"Why should I unload it, I didn't make the dishes dirty that are in there."

Me: Well I don't dirty your drawers, but I sure the hell wash them, don't I?

AND I LEFT THE FUCKING HOUSE.

I do not know why. I do not know what overcame me, perhaps I could just tell that I was on the edge and needed to get away, but I, hand to got, left dinner half cooked on the stove, dishwasher door open, and ex and my oldest watching my ass as it vacated the building.

And I didn't come back for a few hours, because it took that long for me to feel rational again, because gawd help me, I wanted to bash his fucking head in. So I stayed gone until I thought I wouldn't do that the second I walked in.

Anywho, I came home to a clean house, a made dinner, and a very happy to see me ex and Oldest. I was...perplexed, because I was sure as shit that man would be livid with me. That he would have packed up the kid, turned off the stove and headed to his mama's house to have his ego stroked.

NOW, looking back, I can see it was a real threat to him for me to leave without giving him the chance to guilt me into staying. I (the supply) just walked the fuck out. I didn't say "i'm leaving now, I'll be back in a bit", I just grabbed the keys and my purse and hit the door.

I threatened his supply, so he backed off.

My point is: at the time, I was perplexed and I actually felt bad for leaving, like "look, he was just cranky and once he knew I was serious, he did XYZ for me!". But something didn't settle right, and for years afterwards I turned it over and over in my head, trying to figure out what was so wrong with his reaction.

What was wrong is he had a human reaction, but for an N reason. he cleaned the house not because he figured out he'd crossed a line and been wrong, but because he was afraid he had pushed his supply too far.

Once all that clicked into place, the....anxiety? Uncertainty? Something like that....of the situation just melted away. Like I could file that part of my past away and move on to other things.

Damn, I'm long winded these days!


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
Longlost
♀ Member
Member # 16177
Default  Posted: 9:06 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((landa))), please STAY long-winded. Your posts are wonderfully helpful.

THANK YOU!!!

Longlost


Wisdom and pain are not mutually exclusive.
____________________________
Barn's burnt down--
Now I can see the moon.
--Mizuta Masahide

Posts: 288 | Registered: Sep 2007 | From: West of Bizarro World
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 9:20 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hope to own my own stuff, that's why I'm asking for help, and trying to be honest here. Something inside me is broken or breaking, and I can't seem to fix it. I know about "get counseling" - haven't done it for myself yet. In fact, I arranged for a IC for her - and guess what? - yep! She's got him bamboozled - and if it's not a lie, she say's he has told her to leave the relationship bc of MY abuse!
Imagine that!

The answer is going No Contact with her, or at the very least 180 (if you are still in the same house with her). Look to cjonesjag's post on how to live with, but separate from, and N.

You are attached because you are decent human being. And sex is a basic need. It just is. It's a primal urge, and she fulfills that for you AS A WAY TO CONTROL YOU.

It will be painful to separate. And oh Goddess, how easy it is to be pulled back in. My N had a way of just looking at me that would make my panties just fall right off. He would call and call, wanting a booty call, and I swear to this day there were times that, if I had answered that call, he would have talked his way into my bed.

So, I didn't answer the call. I wanted to, very very badly, but I didn't.

Don't beat yourself up if it takes a while, either. And yes, IC will help, and yes, they are able to charm others into thinking this is all your fault, EVEN WHEN THOSE OTHERS ARE PRESENTED WITH EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. They are simply gaslighting others as they have you.

Good luck, and keep posting.


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
cjonesjag
♀ Member
Member # 10617
Default  Posted: 9:33 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My N had a way of just looking at me that would make my panties just fall right off.


Me (BS):50
Him(WTFH):51 Married: 05/26/2002
DD#1: 09/2005 (EA) DD#2: 09/2006
Mini-DDays: Many. Mostly online
DIVORCED 10/20/10
It's not what you've got, it's what you give.
It ain't the life you choose, it's the life you live

Posts: 6400 | Registered: May 2006 | From: Michigan
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((landabear)))

You are on FIRE !!! Please keep these long winded posts. Woo Hoo !!!

(((jjct)))
The sex thing, eh? Yup, blew my mind in the begining too, but not in the end as it had dried up.
As landabear/firestorm (LOL) said it's a CONTROL thing. And a way to hook you. Let it go. Let her go.

(((All)))
Isn't it amazing how they hooked us with the sex/intimacy (although essentially faked) thing? E-flippin'-gads. Whatever. It is what it is.
Soulmate horse hockey. Ah, but we are more the wiser, "If it's to good to be true, your probably right". It's not true. It's manipulation.

Blah-die, bla-da, blah. If our situations weren't so messed up, they would be funny. In a black comedy kinda way.

BoB

ETA: Egads !!! I have got to get this Lame Spelling and Stuff undercontrol.

[This message edited by bobelina at 9:55 AM, December 28th (Friday)]


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 9:48 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Might as well be honest, right?


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 10:32 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((landabear)))
You are on FIRE !!! Please keep these long winded posts. Woo Hoo !!!

I do not know why I feel so healthy lately, but I do. I really do feel - peaceful - with the whole thing.

Oh, maybe I do know! Recently, I had been pondering on how to “let go” or “forgive” ex. People around me were saying that the reason he was still able to get to me was because I needed to “let all he did go” and then I would be able to “move on”.

I felt like a failure for not being able to do this. UNTIL! I figured out:

1) You cannot possibly “let go” of a hurt that is still continuing. I must deal with him several times a week because of the children. As such, it’s not really possible for me to “let go” – all I can really do is manage the best I can, and try not to let him upset me. Until the kids are old enough to deal with him on their own, I must take the brunt of his stupidness on myself, and as such will just be angry with him from time to time. Those that don’t like that can ALSO kiss my ass.

2) Forgiveness, to me, is only for those that are remorseful, repentant and have attempted to make restitution for their wrongs. As he fits none of that criteria, he simply has not, and probably will not, earn my forgiveness. I will save it for those that deserve it, and hope I can meet my own definition of it if I ever wrong someone I love.

3) I was still hoping the man he had the possibility of becoming would show himself, at least in the capacity that it would make him a better father. I had to stop hoping for that, because it still left a part of him (the good part that was visible when we were younger) in my heart, and that left an open wound. Forcing myself to push The Good Part out and close that wound was very hard, but oh so healing.

4) I handle him and his oddness way differently than most people would, because I ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT I AM UP AGAINST. This is a devil I know, intimately. They do not, and so their advice, while useful in regards to normal people, is absolutely moot in my situation. I cannot “just talk to him and see if he will agree to blah blah blah” because all that does is give him another weapon to use against me, an insight into what I am thinking. Yes, a NORMAL person could be reasoned with, but he is not normal and so therefore, I refuse to waste my precious energy and time attempting to do so. I cannot bluff him, because he will call it. I must choose my battles, because he will attempt to make everything one.

5) The people that were telling me to “let go” or “forgive” are good people who are concerned about me and love me dearly. They are just wrong. And that’s okay.

6) Anger is okay. Anger is a valid emotion, and is appropriate in the situations in which I feel it. The best thing I can do is allow myself to feel the anger, recognize it is valid, and then allow it to drain away. It is not good to hold onto it, but it is also very bad to not acknowledge it.

Now, my BF and I have been dating quite a while. We have lived together 9 months (crimeny, that’s longer than I thought it was, but I totally counted it on my fingers and it is that long). We are in a longer term relationship, one that will probably last until one of us kills the other, we are that stubborn. The reason I came to this site originally is I found I was picking a fight with my BF whenever I had to deal with the ex. I couldn’t determine why, and I knew, instinctively, that it had to do with the way my relationship with the ex imploded. So I came here, and followed a poster over to the NPD threads, and realized I had found the key to healing.

I am still healing. I am still trying to navigate what in my current relationship is my own baggage from dealing with ex and what is simply new baggage BF and I must navigate through. But I am nearly 2 years out from the betrayal I found out about, which seems to be when most turn the corner permanently, and things are getting oh so much better. So I want to help others, and apparently I think that involves spilling my guts on the page.

Edited to make it a little easier to read!!!

[This message edited by landabear at 10:33 AM, December 28th (Friday)]


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 10:40 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh, agree with BoB's faked intimacy, Landa please DO keep up being LONG WINDED, & yes, ditto, about MY panties falling off, too!

Welcome to the Tribe, jjct!
(((((hugs))))

It simply boils down to this for ME:
N's are twisted freaks, don't try to analyze/understand them, they are a waste of *everything*!UGGGG

Get out...INTACT.

itsa~ sounds like some royal *paranoia* going on there w/ XN! I am experiencing something similar!!

NoC~ how are you?


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
bobelina
♂ Member
Member # 15312
Default  Posted: 10:53 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not exactly the right context, but here's a quote from Rick James's song "Super Freak". LOL.
------
"She's a super freak, super freak
She's super-freaky, yow"

Rewrite:
"Ns are a super freak, super freak
They're super-freaky, yow"

-------

BoB


Mean People Suck (Especially Narcissists)

Posts: 1817 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Over the Hills and Far Away...
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 11:01 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
downfall
♀ Member
Member # 7430
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wecome Steve and JJ! I am sure that BoB is thrilled to see you two

Often in the beginning you will hear about taking a moral inventory. Not just in NPD land but overall relationship land. Taking moral inventory is important and yet confusing. What does it mean and what does it involve? What is the objective? There are several methods available to help you along in this process. Some are to bring you closer back to yourself and God. Others a way to treat addiction. Reviewing several methods and doing a "make it yourself" one works also.

Personally I prefer the Hazelden approach and still use it.

Hazelden

Step 4: Getting Honest, published by Hazelden in 1992, suggests a four-part inventory encompassing (1) resentments; (2) guilt, remorse and shame; (3) fear; and (4) pride, warmth, love and kindness. We'll take resentment as an example, since the columns remain the same for each part. The Hazelden guide asks inventory writers to list their resentments in the first column. In the second column, writers are asked why they resent those items. In the third column, writers are asked to examine their character traits that are revealed by each resentment. Character traits are not to be judged as positive or negative; the guide suggests that sometimes selfishness can be good and unselfishness can be harmful. In the fourth column, writers are asked to examine the belief or motivation that lies behind each resentment.

The goal of this exercise is to discover mistaken beliefs that cause the writer to think and act in self-defeating ways. The philosophy here is that by discovering underlying mistaken beliefs, the inventory writer can be relieved of self-destructive behaviors.

Each addict is understood as a person possessed of a rational mind, who is able to figure out and think through his or her own problems. The addict is also expected to be capable of separating mistaken beliefs from those that are correct. No criteria are offered in Hazelden's guide to help the inventory writer judge true from false. Writers must decide for themselves.

In this style of inventory, God is not really needed to remove anything, since mistaken beliefs are removed in the process of identifying them as such. Persistent mistaken beliefs might benefit from prayer, and so there is room for God in the work described in Step 4: Getting Honest. However, persistent mistaken beliefs might also be remedied with the help of a therapist, or simply by repetition of the insight that such beliefs are wrong.

From: http://www.nacronline.com/dox/library/inventory.shtml

Believe it or not this does relate to the conversation that Landa is sharing. Your beliefs may change with further knowledge of NPD. What you might have believed to be a fault of your own; you may clearly see later as an active NPD trait at work. But remember you can only change your own actions.

For Landa,

My N went out to play poker with his co-workers one night. I was asleep when he crawled into bed. I reached for him and found his hair wet. I asked why? He told me he had taken a shower before coming to bed.

For days after, I berated myself for not hearing him come in or the shower run. What if it had not been him? How could I have slept so soundly with my babies relying on me for protection? I took extra precautions in the future and often did not fall asleep at all if he wasn't home.

After d-day, I found out that actually he had just returned from a close by cheap hotel room where he had showered before he left.

So many things came into play with this one situation. The fact that technically he did not lie (I made an entire post about the deceiving truth), how I took responsibility without question, and after dealing with those two subjects, I put myself in his position as asked myself what kind of disconnect it took from him to tell me such a thing. He listened to my concerns about sleeping so soundly without flinching. I actually could feel how *cold* he was when I was replaying it during my healing. It was a new emotion to me. This coldness arises in me now when I start to even slightly think he may need understanding/support/comfort. It makes me think of old adage "you get what you give".

Many positive thoughts for all.


Dday June 16 2005: Separated 2/06 Divorced 3/09

Ah, but she can't take you any way
You don't already know how to go ~ Eagles


Posts: 3048 | Registered: Jun 2005
downfall
♀ Member
Member # 7430
Default  Posted: 11:24 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Landa was busy while I was typing!!! Awesome post! 100% truth there. WTG Woman!


Dday June 16 2005: Separated 2/06 Divorced 3/09

Ah, but she can't take you any way
You don't already know how to go ~ Eagles


Posts: 3048 | Registered: Jun 2005
landabear
♀ Member
Member # 15046
Default  Posted: 11:31 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Believe it or not this does relate to the conversation that Landa is sharing. Your beliefs may change with further knowledge of NPD. What you might have believed to be a fault of your own; you may clearly see later as an active NPD trait at work. But remember you can only change your own actions.

So true. I can't make him stop being an N, so all I can do is change the way I react to him being an N.

He would accuse me of something untrue, and I would immediately become defensive. After all, I didn't do that! it's obvious now that he was trying (successfully, I might add) to get a rise out of me.

Now, I simply ignore him. he still tries to accuse me of things (and when that doesn't work, accuses others of more heinous things), but I just do not reply or even acknowledge that he's even speaking.

The fact that technically he did not lie (I made an entire post about the deceiving truth), how I took responsibility without question, and after dealing with those two subjects, I put myself in his position as asked myself what kind of disconnect it took from him to tell me such a thing.

The omissions of my N were legendary. The half-truths? Monumental! Both made me absolutely crazy with anger.

The taking responsibility without question - egads, this was a tough one for me to break. Sweet lawd. Not only on stuff that went wrong, but for his life. He'd call saying he had to work late, and I'd drop everything to pick up the kids from daycare on his days. I would bitch and moan about how he couldn't just NOT WORK LATE. But the truth is, he would only let me take responsibility for his issues as long as I let him.

Oh, the tantrums thrown when I started saying no. And wouldn't you know it?! He suddenly doesn't work that late any more. Suddenly, his mother is more able to babysit when he needs it. How interesting!

It's a hard habit to break (taking responsibility, that is), and it's easy to slip back into, but I really feel it's one of the hallmark's of N's abusive ways. Nothing can ever be their fault, so therefore it's yours. And overtime that becomes internalized.


BS
Divorced: March 2006
Married to a wonderful, FAITHFUL man: October 2009

Posts: 729 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Midwest
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, N's are eternal *victims*...sigh...


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
veritas
♀ Member
Member # 3525
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, December 28th (Friday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey guys! Just here to give (((hugs))) to you all and wanted to say I survived the holidays AND put up my tree! Dickhead, of course, was walking around yonking about how much he hates the holidays, but that's no big surprise there. His brother came in for a friend's funeral and was hiding out from seeing his own son, whom he had not seen in months. My MIL was mad, not because he has turned into the same kind of deadbeat dad that his father was, but because baby mama found out and had the nerve to "put the kid up" to calling his father. Then she got mad because said brother would not drive her here to drop off her presents, not even halfway. Sorry, babe, if you do it with them they will do it to you, too. As it turns out, the awful, evil baby mama is going to drive here to get them to us.

And you know what the best part of that is? None of it is my problem, concern, or headache. That's a beautiful feeling! My own family all went to church on Christmas eve, ate gumbo and exchanged presents afterward, then went to a more extended family celebration at my aunt's on Christmas Day.

ETA: All my test results came back negative, so I don't have to ask anyone to post bail for me.

[This message edited by veritas at 2:59 PM, December 28th (Friday)]


Actions unmask what words disguise.
Love many; trust few; and always paddle your own canoe.
When you win, you teach; when you lose, you learn.

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