It sounds like you have a good handle on things and are ok having him around. I would definitely caution about moving on to dating any time soon. Many times we feel like we are ready, but if we don't take the time to heal, then we can attract the wrong sort or hurt a good person with our issues. I have heard to give it 6 months to a year for every 5 years married. I am 2-1/2 years out from d-day and I still haven't dated, but I was married almost 25 years at the time. I miss having a partner, but I feel this time has really been good for me. Wishing all the best for you and your kids!
Honestly I don't believe that a man who has a same-sex attraction and has acted out a hundred times with anonymous men can be a good and committed husband to you. It appears to me from all the information I have read, discussing this with other straight spouses and hearing from gay men, that the biological and emotional need for a man to be with another man, just cannot be fulfilled be being with a woman. That desire is just so strong, that they almost seem to not be able to help themselves. Also in a vast majority of the marriages that I am familiar with (not 100%), the husband lies/minimizes what he has actually done. If he says he only contacted men, then he probably did oral. If he says he only did oral (this is bad enough), then he most likely did anal. If he says he slept with one man, then he probably did many men.
A same-sex cheater is NOT the same variety as a hetero cheater. They have many similarities, but the shame and denial get tangled up and make them much more unlikely to come clean, to be able to stop and to recommit to a hetero-relationship. They also usually always vow to want to work things out in their marriage. My husband was a rare case in that he wanted to stay together, but made it clear that he was going to continue his activities. That made it easier to kick him to the curb. However, most of the times it seems that they promise that they are not gay, they are a sex addict, or they are bi, and can make the marriage work. The one thing I have heard over and over and I believe absolutely to be true is that same-sex attraction grows stronger as one gets older. So even if you can work it out in the short-term, do you always want to be looking over your shoulder, wondering.....
Please understand that nothing is 100%. There may well be men out there who have same-sex attractions and can not act on them. I just haven't come across those stories. What I have come across is women, who truly believe their husbands are being truthful and they can make their marriages work, but once they start digging uncover so much more deceit then they could have imagined. I am really hoping that things will work out for you in the best way possible.
Sorry I'm late to this thread…I forget to check it!
1. Originally we told them that we weren't getting along. They were 5 and 8 at the time. That morphed over time, especially as my older child wanted answers and I refused to lie to them. After about a year, it was, "People make promises to each other and Daddy broke a promise to Mommy and hurt her heart". Then later, "Daddy wanted to date boys". My kids do know that Daddy was dating boys while we were married and I have him another chance and Daddy still wanted to date boys. Now, close to 4 years later, he is in an openly gay relationship.
2. I'm still not out of the mindfuck. But, overall I have moved on with my life. That took about 2 years post d-day to say I felt really good. Dating hasn't been easy for me.
3. Now, I'd say we are decent co-parents. He still doesn't' make the best decisions and I have primary custody of the kids. He sees them e/o weekend. He will come and stay here for holidays and we will chat occasionally.
My ex claimed he "wasn't gay", "wasn't even bi-sexual". He didn't know why, it wasn't "that great", on and on and on. I don't know what he would say NOW, because we don't talk about it. I know he has regrets, but that is it.
I am now 3 years post S and almost 4 years post d-day and I JUST NOW feel like I can be myself in a relationship. Like, I feel like I am an adult and making good relationship decisions when I do find time to date. We were together 17 years. I also feel this time working on myself has been very beneficial, I am a stronger person for what I went through.
"For whatever we lose, like a you or a me, it's always ourselves we find in the sea" ee cummings
It appears to me from all the information I have read, discussing this with other straight spouses and hearing from gay men, that the biological and emotional need for a man to be with another man, just cannot be fulfilled be being with a woman.
A key question for us is: is our spouse gay or bi?
I agree that R won't work well - and probably won't work at all - when one partner is gay and the other is straight.
But I believe a person who has satisfying sex with both men and women is bisexual, not gay, and I believe that a person who bi has the ability to decide to be monogamous. I don't see how bisexuality in itself is an impediment to R. As far as I can see, M won't work with on gay and one straight partner, but a bisexual can be in a committed relationship with either straights, other bis, and/or gays.
Again, the key question for us is: is our spouse with same gender ap gay or bi?
A same-sex cheater is NOT the same variety as a hetero cheater....
How does the gender of the ap affect recovery? How does a gay A make recovery different? (For the record, I think you're over-generalizing here.)
[This message edited by sisoon at 4:31 PM, May 1st (Thursday)]
When I found his online Adam4Adam profile, with TEARS in his eyes, REAL TEARS, he said, "Part of me is so glad you found this. I might have actually met someone if you hadn't found this!"
I was skeptical.
DD # 1. NOW I know he's been interested in cheating.
DD # 2, NOW I know he's been unfaithful with 2 people over a year.
DD # 3, NOW I know there has been unsafe sex practices.
DD # 4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, 12....NOW I know more and more details
DD # 13? eight years, 100 partners, unsafe sex.
Always with strangers.
I believe him when he says he's never felt an emotional attachment to a man. He's definitely bi-sexual, however!
Someone said they're more afraid of their husband being gay, not that he'd cheat on them.
I fear more the cheating. If he's gay, good for him! Go out and be gay. Enjoy yourself.
It would make my life easier at this point.....
I think it is much more complicated than "are they bi or gay", it has to do with their own personal morals and beliefs combined with their sexuality.
I would have bet money my ex was bi. We were together 17 years and having sex the entire time. At the time, I thought the sex was pretty good, although not frequent enough in the later years…but pretty good.
The first time I had sex post D…I was blown away with how that man craved me. Nothing like I had experienced with ex. SO loved my skin and my hair and my smell and was just fascinated with my body. My ex wasn't. It kinda opened my eyes to what sex is supposed to be like with a fully hetero man.
Now, ex is fully gay. I guess. I haven't asked him, but he calls his boyfriend the love of his life and his soul mate. Things I haven't found yet, I guess.
So, long story to…it isn't a black/white issue. If they are having sex with the same sex, you can be SURE they aren't straight.
Many cheaters, same-sex or otherwise, have professed their remorse, their willingness to stop their activities shed tears, etc. and yet continue on with their affairs. To me the difference in healing with a same-sex affair versus a hetero affair, is the questions that might be raised and linger:
1) Was this ever real or was I used as a "cover?"
2) The feeling that they will always to drawn to something that you cannot give them (not the right equipment) and that you will never be enough for them.
3) The fear that they are not "bi" as they might have stated but actually gay.
My husband does not choose to identify himself as gay. He tried to pull out the "fluid sexuality" thing. He was in a 6-7 year same sex affair when I found out 2-1/2 years ago and as far as I know, he is still with this guy. He said that "if he never sleeps with another woman, then maybe he is gay." That is ridiculous to me and shows the level of denial that some of these men have. We were married very young, so I give him the benefit of the doubt that he may have not been absolutely sure when we first got married, but according to his own admission, he knew he was attracted to men by 20 or 21. He said nothing.
Am I generalizing, sure, but it is generalizing based on 2-1/2 years of reading and talking with other straight spouses. However as I said, nothing is 100%, there are always exceptions and the possibility that a marriage can survive this. However, I do think it is advisable to treat a same-sex cheater with extreme skepticism when they say they are bi and want to reunite and recommit to the marriage.
For me, ex did have a sexual encounter as a teenager (I found out post d-day). When he met me as a 21 year old, he lead me to believe he had been with a woman as a 15 year old and he had multiple girlfriends. He stated when he met me he was "struck by lightening" and fell in love and he pursued me hard. Saying, "I thought my 'questions' had been answered when I met you." I told him that he should have told me there was a question.
He knew. He knew he had an attraction to men and never told me.
That is what sickens me the most, knowing that we never had a chance, I blew my life on a guy that was doomed from the moment he met me. And I was clueless and used. For that, I will never forgive him and he knows it. Sadly, I do think he loves me…but it is the way a gay man loves a woman.
I definitely look back and know I was in denial that he was gay. It took about 9 months of accepting the marriage was over before I was ready to let go. Then probably another year of really working on being OK with letting it go.
It is a long process for everyone.
It's not whether he's gay or straight. He's bisexual because he had sex (and enjoyed it!) with men. He has never felt emotionally attached, and usually didn't even know their names. After research, and during marital therapy, I thought maybe he was a Sex addict. But, he's not SA. He had compulsive rituals, yes, but nothing that he admits he is incapable of controlling. His life with porn was frequent and escalated before he started seeing men.
Someone on here wrote that her husband claims it's just his "kinkiness" that he met men. It is certainly not an excuse, but there is something to the idea of escalated risk being attractive to men. That is my fear. After so much risk, if he really, as he claims, has no urge to see men, WHAT WILL BE THE NEXT tHING!?!?
"I think it is much more complicated than "are they bi or gay", it has to do with their own personal morals and beliefs combined with their sexuality. "
He's been an amoral man with no consideration for me. If Glinda waved her wand and turned him into the best husband in the universe, I'm not sure I could forget that he put my life in danger for 8 years.
In his counseling, he says he's found out that he has discovered that the most important thing in the world is he values our relationship and love and support and family and friends, and blah blah blah....
I keep hoping that something will convince me he is and can remain a moral person.
[This message edited by PollyA at 6:28 PM, May 2nd (Friday)]
^^^This takes time. And trust. And him doing a hell of a lot of work to earn it back.
I don't want to be negative with you since you are still figuring out everything. But, I heard similar things form my ex too. "I was just getting off with them, I made love to you!" "It didn't mean anything. It wasn't as good as I thought!" "I'm not gay!"
I think he cheated our entire 17 year relationship, although I will never know.
My fear for you is that he is lying to you. As my ex said, "Who WANTS to be this way??" It was much easier to be in the hetero world with a cute wife, big house and a couple of kids. He didnt' want to give up the "normal" life, and he claimed to still be very much in love with me.
I discovered later he lied to all of our therapists too. We did IC and MC…he lied to all of them.
Simply…lying is easy for them. That is the scary part.
There is nothing any of us can say that will give you the answer. All you can do is make the decision to leave, or watch and wait. It took me 9 months to decide to finally leave, and that is when I discovered he was back in contact with one of the AP's…it was then I knew he couldn't do what needed to be done. As soon as things got really ugly (I was in so much pain and venting), he ran back to his "addiction" or "escape" or whatever you want to call it.
You nailed my problem exactly! "doing a hell of a lot to win back my trust" is what isn't happening.
He THINKS he’s doing the work to save our marriage, however, he does what he wants, and not what I’ve asked him to do since the VERY FIRST DISCLOSURE ten months ago. Oh my God, I’ve been feeling this way for nine months….
I don't mean he's having sex with men still...or women. My three main requests to him.
1. Be honest
2. Keep your word
3. Drive the work to save our marriage. (this original request was for him to “accelerate” his growth and recovery. That boundary was immediately breached. I should have left then.)
1. He took six and a half months to tell the whole truth (after lying in MC for five months, wasting $1300!), and only because I would find new information and he’d have to re-confess his full “truth”. He continues to vacillate about certain details of our long ago past claiming “I really can’t remember”, which is what he’d said the entire time he was lying. Then he knew, he was just afraid to tell me. So, now when he says that it seems like just more lies.
2. He doesn't keep his promises to me. He doesn't understand the importance of it. Some of these promises are not deal breaker in and of themselves. It's the fact he makes them then breaks them.
Example: We have not had any sexual interaction since...I think last September. It wasn't intercourse, but there was touching. At some point, he made more disclosures and I had a HUGE negative reaction regarding something specific that we'd enjoyed together. More triggers added to the mountain of deceit. I couldn't touch him or be touched by him anymore.
He said that he understood. He swore to me that he was not going to masturbate until that time when I felt I wanted to have physical relations with him again. I told him that was not necessary. I was not willing to make the same promise! He made a big deal of saying he was not going to masturbate, and if he found it too difficult to abstain, he'd talk to me about it.
Sometime later I asked if he'd masturbated. Not only did he say that he had masturbated, he did not remember making that promise. A huge fight ensued. After much struggle, he remembered. This resulted in many tears, his promises, his anger, my anger, and my continuing to questioning his every word....
It's not about whether he masturbated. It's about his inability to remember what seemed very important to him just a few months earlier and keep that promise.
After a bad time of me putting down the boundary of leaving if he doesn’t do something more than what he was doing, he reluctantly agreed to do some online exercises, at least one, preferably two a week. If he is too busy to do so, he should let me know and it will be fine. We'll talk about it. He did it…twice? Three times, but not weeks in a row. This month, he waited three weeks, then sends me one via email, no discussion, no explanation. I wrote back, “After three weeks what am I supposed to do with this?” He replied, “I know I’m behind on my writing. I’m going to do another lesson tomorrow. We can talk about them later.” I wrote back, “Nah…thanks anyway”. Since then (a week), he hasn’t addressed it, hasn’t explained, just puts on a smile and suggests we go see a sunset! (I wouldn’t) and a movie (I did)
He loves to suggest sunsets, and fun things for us to do. He likes to pretend that nothing's wrong. I try. I put on a happy face, but inside I’m sad and angry because it’s the same avoidance. The same broken promises. The same not sharing his feelings.
Another broken promise: Throughout his trickle truth, and my head exploding, I would leave the house due to overwhelming negative emotions. Once I tried to sleep in the car because we are having financial difficulties and I didn’t want to spend the money on a hotel. (NYC is VERY expensive). For several weeks, off and on, I couch surfed and put myself in uncomfortable situations. Snow made it difficult. My public transportation commute to work was long and physically difficult. (We work in the same school, but in different areas, so with one car we car pool, but once at school don't need to interact.) I asked him to be the one to leave next time. He said that he would leave if we found ourselves at that point sadness and anger again. He agreed when we were having the discussion. When we found ourselves in that situation again, I begged him to leave. I even promised that I would not tell ANYONE about his same sex affairs. Just go and let me be. He refused to leave. I left. I took the car this time, at least!
He claims him not leaving shows he's committed to staying in the marriage. I see that he didn’t honor his word. Every broken promise makes me question his ability to keep his promise of marital fidelity. So far, he’s not been able to keep it for 8 of our 11 married years. He also cheated on me before we were married and had claimed that he’d learned from our previous MC that he wanted to be with me. (Oh, I just reread a letter he wrote to me as we were going through that time. He made all the promises in the world. He even wrote, “please no more ’swear on your dick’ ( I thought we settled whose dick it was once and for all, anyway)” I guess we really didn’t settle that last one, cause I would never have agreed to the 100 strange men’s dick inclusion.)
3. From the first disclosure I’ve told him that I need him to drive the effort to save our marriage. He sees going to IC as doing this. He seems to get a lot from this work. I’m happy it’s made him feel less shame and terror. When it comes to our interaction, however, he lets things go…..as if nothing is wrong. He knows eventually my head will explode and I’ll bring it up. He is well practiced at ignoring his emotions. I’m not. He’s suggested we do interesting and/or romantic things together while we have unresolved horrible questions between us. I MUST STOP THAT INTERACTION. I don’t know how to let go or pretend. It's too difficult at this point. Supposedly he's working on that in his individual counseling, but I don't know how. He speaks very little of his IC.
My counselor had suggested that I speak with H's IC to give the IC the partner's perspective in this possible SA, NPD treatment. He claimed it was fairly common. The first time, H said his IC said, "After working with addicts for so long, I know when I'm being lied to." My initial reaction to that was anger because I'd known H for 37 years and STILL didn't know when he was lying to me!
A month later, I asked H if his IC thinks our marriage can be saved. If he thinks if it's possible H can be a moral man who keeps his promises. H said "yes" and would see if his IC would have me at a session to discuss those topics. H texted his IC. After some back and forth, IC said that he didn't want to do it for the next session, but that he and H could discuss it at their next session. That was two months ago and I've never heard from him about it again.
I stay up at night tortured with this fact: He's unwilling or unable to do what I'VE asked him to do for our marriage. We have discussed at length that I need “All, or Nothing at All”, to quote Jack Lawrence. He knows exactly what he needs to do to earn that privilege, but he hasn’t done it. It’s not a priority for him.
At this point, after so much emotional withholding, I'm tired, depressed, and although I still wish for us to have a trusting, loving marriage, I can't be with him through his process. I’m much better when he’s not around. It makes me cry to put those words in writing, but it’s true.
We can't even start working on the betrayals of the past because he continues to betray me (as silly as they might seem) in the present.
I need to stop living in that disappointed present. I don’t know how to be with him and accept his behavior as he works through it. In June, I’m going away for two months for my job and only have off one day a week. I want no contact with him so that I can't be disappointed in him anymore.
When I come back, I’ll reevaluate. In the meantime we see that counselor in two days. Wish me luck.
If you got through this, God Bless you for caring!!
[This message edited by PollyA at 5:47 PM, May 3rd (Saturday)]
All I can tell you is that when I finally really hit "rage", about 6 months in…all he kept saying was, "I'm hurting too!" and I thought, "fuck you and get out of my house." I was hurting so badly over some terrible trigger, and what I realized is that he couldn't stop thinking about himself. I kicked him out. Within 2 days I apologized to him and asked him to come home.
I realized his behavior changed after that, and I found out later he turned to fAP for comfort.
I was done. I had seen him break pretty much every promise he made to me during R. Minimal work, said the right things but didn't DO the right things.
I know he loved me, but it is the way a gay man loves a woman…I, and our children, were not enough for him and that was and IS sad.
At some point you will simply wake up and know it is time to be done. What you are describing is not a safe person (emotionally) to be with, but you have to make that determination.
I didn't mean to imply that being gay is a bad thing.
My fear comes from being almost 4 years out from dday. For the first 3 years my biggest fear was that he would cheat again. Now? Not so much. I don't think he will cheat again. Im not 100% sure of that, of course, but Im truly not concerned that he will cheat on me again.
But...what if he is lying? To me...to himself? What if he is deep in denial about his sexuality? What is Im wrong..and he isn't bi..but is gay?
So...I watch him.
And some days? I think Im watching my husband come out of the closet.
..that feeling you get in your stomach, when you heart's broken. It's like all the butterflies just died.
I can clearly remember wondering when we WERE married. Just an odd thing or two that he would do that would make me go, "hmmmm….." But, I assumed I was paranoid. I used to have dreams that he was cheating on me, and not too far before d-day I clearly watched my H watch another man walk across the room. I can remember that pit in my stomach as I watched his eyes watch that man. I looked at him and said, "Would you like to go his number?" He acted like he had NO IDEA what I was talking about.
The only thing you do know is that he isn't straight…the rest is kinda up to him. If he is gay and doesn't want to act on those urges because he wants to be with you instead…then let him make that choice.
Do you think he is staying with you so you don't hurt??
I have another friend that the H stayed until their dd went to college. Then he came out and left the marriage, so she is in her 50's trying to start over. He said he was just trying not to hurt anyone. Also what my ex said, he didnt' want to "hurt" me by telling me.
Just keep talking to him…that is all you can do.
I'm sorry that you are still hurting after so much time and love invested.
Have you been to therapy? When we talked to the therapist (the last time when he was still lying about disclosure), he asked me very pointed questions about our sex life. From those answers, he believes h to be predominantly heterosexual, with some bisexual tendencies. It included my input on the types of sexual activities we enjoyed as well as H's saying what HE likes.
I don't want to tmi, but if he is able to view and find your sexual organs attractive, he is not completely homosexual. He is likely bisexual.
There are tests online, but I understand they don't help if your husband is not telling himself the truth. I put them here nevertheless.
The second one can be complicated. You must read the words carefully. Me, who has never felt attracted to or engaged in sexual activity with the same sex, keep getting some "points" on the homosexual scale. Go figure!
I wish you peace.
I'm at my wits end. I'm really feeling defeated.
Can you fill in some details? The timing on finding out about the A? How did you know the number was a gay man? What are on the emails to BHK the old contact on the yahoo account.
And this may sound simplistic, but did you ask him?
Some days I feel like I have a good handle on it, other days I fall apart. Depends on the day, the hour, the trigger etc.
I definitely will not be dating anytime soon. It wouldne be fair to to me, anyone I date, or my kids. And really, I can't see dating while he is still living here. Awkward. I told him if he is ready to start dating then this won't work. He says he is too screwed up right now to even think about it. I think he is feeling a lot.of shame. especially because I keep finding more crap and confronting him. I can be a hardass.
There is no legal separation in canada, and we have to be separated for a year before we can divorce. So, just working on a separation agreement for us, that will be the basis for divorce terms, and working on getting my ducks in a row financially.
I am glad for the topic. There is nowhere else you can safely go to shout out loud my wh had a with men. I found emails from Craigslist and my heart start racing an swimming. How oblivious I was to all this. It wasn't just men but women too. Says he is not gay or bi. Yeah right. I feel so stupid to a world I had no clue.
How do you hold your head up. It's bad enough all things he's done but this socks my gut the worst.
Thanks for the thread
M 26 together 31
2 kids grown