So the brain notices the clues - his body language, facial expressions, his actions, words, mood, similar patterns in behavior -- all the little clues. So maybe he's not meeting my eyes or working on the house a lot more, and brain knows that's a signal. So brain knows to be more alert for what WS is doing. If there's a slip of paper where there might not be, or even where there might be one, the brain says, "that could be a clue, look at it," but I don't know that. I just know that I want to look...
Anyway, I feel satisfied with the answers when
a. it all fits together and there are no gaps or not quite logical parts, or fuzzy parts.
b. he doesn't try to distract me or switch the conversation focus or say he's tired, or whatever method, to end the topic
c. he can relax and lets more details out - but not TOO many details, which makes it seem like he's hiding
d. I stop thinking about it all, mulling it over, wondering, coming back to it in quiet moments
e. MOST of all - I feel ok about it. I don't feel I need to keep searching.
But this is complicated by denial, I realized - Before the first D-Day, I TrUlY believed he was not cheating, even though everyone in my life said he acted like it, and I've always picked men who cheat. And he had cheated in most of his other relationships. In that case, the red flags were covering me but I pretended they weren't there. So you have to take a look at the situation like it's a puzzle - are you ignoring big things that don't make sense? Are you accepting his reassurances over evidence?
That's what my time with my XBF, the amazing liar/hider man, has taught me.
XBF moved out today. Although it is the 7th time in 2.5 years, I am hoping this time sticks. I mean, I love him and I wish he could get healthy and I could get healthy and we could be together, but he doesn't seem to be even waving at that train, let alone buying a ticket.
I've had so many D-Days and hours and minutes with him.. I had no idea he was a Sex Addict or even what SA was, really. I had no idea the amount of time, energy and emotional shutdown it takes to hide the huge amounts of secrets and lies he carries daily.
I am amazed to find that I am STILL figuring things out. He says "I'm TRYING not to lie anymore" (I glossed over that TRYING for a long time before I asked how he was FAILING).
But even as we end the second week after I told him I could not be with him anymore (because I guessed 2 secrets that violated our R agreement), I am realizing lies, still putting clues together. The brain is up there, machines running overtime.
It's been a long journey to learn to trust my intuition, or my brain, or whatever. People used to say to trust what your heart or your gut was saying. I always said that I didn't know what it was saying. I will stop seeing people because I'm afraid they'll hurt me and I don't know why. So I don't know if it's anxiety or perceptiveness. I've cooked up whole fancy feasts based on my intuition and it turns out the thing triggering the intuition was just a snack bar.
This past week we've been doing many stages of detaching and departing. As we go along, I get swept up in sorrow, anger, fear, longing, etc. And that's when my awareness is not as sharp - when I'm reeling or raging.
But he's been gone most of the day, and I'm getting clarity again, and things are rising to the surface. I find that I wrote down descriptions of why his words don't ring true, but still let him slide when he denied.
1. Yahoo Instant Messenger. A bunch of evidence that he has been chatting. I found strange things in his history and mailbox which I discovered come from entering a Yahoo chat room. I found he had created an "alias" - so you can be in a chat room and it won't show up as your email name. Like I could be "hotmama69" or whatever.
Yesterday I had a brief guilty look at his history and found he had created a new Yahoo account some days ago - several days before he showed me his regular Yahoo account, voluntarily, to show me how CLEAN it is - no activity!
It is clear from the hard evidence I have that he HAS used chat around 30 or 40 times, minimum, since the end of May. He was adamant. He said I was imaginative, or paranoid, or losing it, or way off base, or totally wrong.
That makes me doubt myself, until I remind myself THERE ARE HARD FACTS HERE. NOBODY WOULD HACK INTO HIS EMAIL ACCOUNT TO USE CHAT. COME ON.
And I am starting see that this is so CRAZY MAKING and that it has really traumatized me. Yesterday I accused a mutual friend of covering up for my XBF. And he got really mad. "How DARE YOU EVEN THINK I WOULD LIE to cover up for him" and went on to tear apart my life and choices. I told XBF and he said, "I don't know why S. got mad at you. He has lied to cover up for me right in front of me."
Immediately I felt dizzy and got angry and demanded he tell me what he had S. cover up for. I was really intense and his eyes widened with fear. I scared myself. It hit me really hard that this friend was lying too, that I could not know who to trust in this world. That made me see how deeply I'm affected and I will need help with this.
I know there is more he didn't tell me. He avoided answering a list of questions I gave him on Tuesday, as a prerequisite for staying in the house. I think that's one of the reasons he left after all, instead of taking a spare room here in the house, as he kept asking me to allow.
It makes me angry or sad or something beyond belief - I know he could help settle my mind so much by telling the truth.
No truth he has told me, and there have been some killers, hurts as much as the wondering, the doubt, the clues rolling by again and again.
I'm hoping that with time will come acceptance that I cannot know. And I think key to that is accepting that my intuition is ALWAYS onto something, even if doesn't know what. I've come to know it well, to read it well, to know when I'm adding my own imagined scenarios to scare myself, etc...
What a burden. So glad to not live in fear now.
I think now I'm left with the why, which I can't get from the methods I'm using to get 'factual' answers. It appears it really wasn't even romantic, but someone to listen to his complaints about me and bolster him up.
I guess the answers I really want now are How could you be so stupid???? and How could you be so callous and self-centered and immature??? and Do you understand YET how much damage this woman did by always telling you what you wanted to hear (ie, yeah, she's awful, I don't know why you put up with it), and Do you understand that you meant nothing to her but an ego stroke that a married man would confide in her about his awful wife? (He got an e-mail invite to her wedding-- and only after she didn't get enough guests off her a-list. She has no interest in actually getting together with him, either.)
I think I have a clearer picture of what really happened and it appears he has finally started telling the truth in the last 7 months. But I still just can't wrap my mind around jeopardizing your marriage just for someone to talk to now and again.
[This message edited by capri at 9:47 PM, August 2nd (Sunday)]
sealskin- that's awful. Uh, is there a hallmark card for "My husband tells me we are having another child."
I worked hard today on letting go of the need to know. Made a bit of progress, I think. Just kept reminding myself it no longer matters. I have found out soooo much, and if there were or are more women, it is no longer affecting me since I left him. I mean it is affecting me, but I want to stop being SO affected.
He started answering some questions on the list I gave him recently. He sent the two questions he had answered. He was a little bit less adamant - like he said that probably nobody hacked into his Yahoo account and made an alias so he could go in chat rooms unnoticed by me, should I ever happen to be in one... He said he must've tried it once or twice, but he doesn't remember, honestly. He swears.
He also let out a bit more from before the first D-Days - a twist to a story that I had never heard. One night when he lied about where he went - I never questioned him about where he did go, and then tonight I thought to. He was with one of his OW. I was so surprised. It hurt a bit, but then subsided.
I am so bone tired of being on guard. I miss him like crazy tonight, feel part of me is gone, feels so awful. But I am also relieved that he is gone because the anxiety is WAYYYYyyyy down.
My fave right now is the one that was a text to a young prostitute living at his friend's house. He got some bravado the other day and dared me to check his phone. And there was a text to the young lady. It said, "when can you talk?"
He claims this message was written to her because he was outside their friend's house, and she didn't hear my X knocking. None of it makes sense, he's never given a clear time line of that day, and maintains that "when can we talk" means "I'm at the door."
I know it's all nonsense, and that's why I am not talking to him at all.
Last night he emailed me and said,"
i have the dull ache. the useless feeling that my life is empty, and i'm just going through the motions of living functionally. i wanted to spend my life with you too. i'm feeling hopeless about it right now, like we will just drift apart, and getting healthy won't make us want to return to a situation that was so different from our real dreams. there were times like i've had with no other. i certainly love you. but i also noticed my relief at not being suspected of doing anything by anybody. this was the reality i created and we perpetuated. you must be relieved also, about not having to worry and fear my next painful action. the whole thing lends a sadness to my new sad life, where i just degrade and my expectations of life and myself shrink
Where is the sense that he could have done anything about it? Or still could. His sadness about his sad new life where he degrades and expects less of himself???
How about get some help?
It makes me sick. The lying is so deeply ingrained he sees no way to change.
And am I wrong to feel like his real message was, "It's a relief that you're not always watching and suspecting," but he tacked on the "this was a reality I created and perpetuated" line afterwards because he knew what I'd say?
Anyway, I try to stop these chains of thought I go on.
It leads to pain.
But I can't let go of wanting to know. He is here now helping out with a few things that he left undone. But I think he just wants money.
Here is the problem, and here is the solution.
Solution: Don't speak to him ever again.
Problem: I want him to admit something, anything. He told me today that there is nothing he has lied about in the past month.I assume he meant nothing that he hasn't told me, because there were some whoppers.
I need to not talk to him again but I just can't let go.
When he told me today that he had not lied, that he was not lying by omission, that there is NOTHING, for the past month, I just felt utterly screwed up.
If that is true, then there is something really wrong with my brain.
And I must be crazy.
Yet, he has gotten angry at me several times today - every time "lying" is brought up.
Why should that make him angry? He says he wants to be friends but he
He said NOBODY in his life has ever not trusted a word he said.
Maybe nobody caught on. Or maybe I am making it up.
I guess if I never talk to him again, it will not matter anymore. I can believe what i want and i don't need proof that I'm right or wrong.
Does anybody understand the need to know? Does anybody know what that's like?
In a nutshell, then -- (well, I tried to nutshell, but it's still too long)...
THE SITUATION EMOTIONALLY: My previous post mentioned that my X keeps telling me there are No More Lies or Secrets. At All. "I've been so good!" -- and I found myself feeling crazy because I could not believe him.
THE SITUATION OF HOUSING:
I told him the other day that I wanted NC for awhile. Shortly after that he texted that he was alone, scared, etc. I let him come visit, and he stayed over for a few nights and apparently wants to move back, and stay in one of the bedrooms I rent out.
We'd not be a "couple" but he would keep working on the remodel for me, and have a place to live while looking for work. I had mixed feelings. I know he is seductive and can get me to go against my best interests. And I was feeling good with him gone, finally.
The longer he stayed, the more uncomfortable I was feeling. Not only that, but I caved and we had (a bunch of) sex (and it was like old days - really good). Combine that with the fact that I just FELT for sure that he's full of lies and secrets, and I was really getting nervous and even scared. One night he really lost his temper for a few minutes and was threatening. (because I caught him in a fresh lie).
I tried to tell him AGAIN that the secrets/lying were no good. And that we should just be upfront if we were looking to date people - chat or IRL or whatever. Not like details but, "I want to make sure you know I'm actively looking to meet someone..."
instead of like he says: "I'm not looking for ANYONE. I need time to heal..." (for a SA not in recovery, I sort of doubt it 100%). He agreed each time and said the same thing "I'm not looking for ANYONE."
Somehow, emotions got running the night before last, and he agreed to share 2 secrets. Up to this point he would stare into my eyes and say I really needed help because my paranoia was getting serious, as he HAD NO LIES OR SECRETS.
SO he tells me that
SECRET #1. He put a personals ad on Craigslist but didn't get any replies.
WHAT I GUESSED #1. I said not even bots? Him: Oh, yes bots. Three.. I said, Not even ONE bi or gay guy? Him: Oh, yeah, there was one guy. But anyway so I deleted the ad.
BELIEF #1: I don't think he;s telling the whole story.
SECRET #2: This was a doozy. He admitted that he'd been "searching on the Internet for" one of the FOWs from the time of D-Day #1. This FOW was one of the most hurtful situations he did. Terrible lying and manipulating. Still makes me hollow to think of. I was shocked and I turned away from him. He swore he hated her and it was a terrible mistake and he would NEVER EVER want to talk to her again.
WHAT I GUESSED #2: without batting an eyelash, I said: "Was her car there when you drove by her place?" and he, not realizing immediately that he was blowing his Internet Searched and Then Gave Up story, said that the car wasn't there, but he doesn't know if she has the same one.
BELIEF #2: There is more to this story. Or there will be if he lets it. She is a terrible influence on him, and just encourages his bad side, and he lies to her and uses her (hey, just like me!). It almost made me not R with him last year, the 2 of them. He wasn't able to remember what day he went by her apt. And his story changed and got garbled. I think he may have seen her. Or called or emailed.
THE TRANSITION. That was really rough. I did get angry and told him to just go live with her. They'd be good for each other, etc. I did calm down ok, but I was very shut off for hours. I was remembering, feeling the pain, angry at him, and myself for caring.
LAter in the day, in a better mood, he asked how I could say that he lies or hides something every day when we'd been together all day. I pointed out when I'd found him with his fancy new Internet ready phone, and he closed it quickly, and said he was on the Internet, "trying to figure out how to get in my email."
He started to show that he doesn't know how to do that (yesterday, oddly, he did, and kept asking me if I'd gone in his email on his phone), and I took the phone to show him - and voila, there was one of his accounts - with replies to and from women that answered his Craigslist ad. And lots of new dating sites he's joined. And lots of my emails in the trash, unread! There were various other social sites and emails I couldn't access.
THE CLEANSING: We had been out buying a part for the house and had a long drive home. On the way I started just telling him how I felt about the lying, the mistreatment, the cruelty, making me out as a crazy loon to all his friends and never clearing my name as he promised, only making NEW friends and saying the same stuff, breaking his promises to me that he made at R, and CONTINUING to say he does not lie or hide, despite my begging him to just admit that he does SOMETIMES so that I didn't feel so crazy. I talked about his manipulation and seduction of me, and his ANGER when I question his honesty. I talked about him saying it's my fault or my weight or whatever that drives him, to these very skanky women he throws me over for.. Just all of it. And I also said he's not a bad person, he does bad things to others, but if he stopped, looked at himself and OWNED it, he could start to heal. I said the saddest part is watching him destroy himself.
He said nothing. As we pulled up to the house, i told him I wanted the WHOLE story about the latest prostitute (Just Friends) he's been hanging out with socially. He went in and I sat in the truck for 2 hours, looking all through his phone. There were porn sites, and more emails. He had erased all texts and many phone records. I dialed some numbers of those left, there was a dating site, women answered at two other numbers.
At the start I was angry, then hurt, then desolate, then I felt calm. I knew that, even though there was not too much on the phone, he had not stopped lying even once.
In the house, he was on MY computer and had visited all his email accounts, and was trying to get into my user account. I knew he had erased plenty while I was outside, but he still gave me the passwords. I spent another hour or two gathering what I could from his nearly empty emails (erased trash, sent, everything). I found a few things. Some were distressing.
But as I looked, the bad feelings started to lessen, and I felt lighter, less involved. At the end, I felt nothing but calm. WHen he tiptoed in, saying, "I guess you have some questions for me," I said no, and said we needed to get his room ready, if he was still planning on staying here (he said he was and we agreed to draw up an agreement), and asked what he needed for sleeping on the couch if he was staying over.
He was nice the rest of the evening - brought me food, walked the dog, and that was it. I assume he slept on the couch, or left.
I felt such freedom. I knew he was off to do more secret things, and I didn't care. None of my business. I didn't WANT a man like that in my life as a partner. And as a friend, he may not me in his life, because I won't be like his other exes, and just pat him on the back and let him pretend he's all good.
This is a wonderful change in me. I know I'm not done, and this morning I'm feeling cycles of anger, suspicion, WANTING THE TRUTH -- but they are small, and don't last long. There is a stronger feeling overriding that says, "I know enough to know I can never trust him (unless he miraculously does the work).
I've been up and down like a goldfish in a toilet tank since I posted that.
I do seem to mostly maintain a sense of detachment, but it is very hard. I have had a few more instances of NEED TO KNOW grip me.
We are sharing the house, still, and often this is confusing because we get along so well it feels difficult to be doing the detaching I need to do. I feel like I want more space sometimes, or else I feel devastated to think of us being apart, when he has a job and can move out.
More terrible truths came out. I can't even remember why, but he gave me two new huge ones: there are two times we've been apart since our False R began in November - both times when he went out of state to visit his father.
On one of those occasions, he came on to an ex-lover, using porn and touching himself in front of her, according to his story. The other occasion he actually had intercourse with a woman he had met on a previous visit to his father's.
It is disgusting to me because both times I sensed that something was wrong. There were gaps in time when he didn't answer texts.
On one of the visits, we were having a huge crisis at home with some unsafe renters in the house with me. I was terrified the whole time he was gone -- and he was trying to sleep with someone.
And when he slept with the woman, we had been back together for a month and half. He had wooed me and chased me, and convinced me to take him back, and he'd moved back into my house after breaking up with me months before and moving 900 miles away.
This whole time I've been beating my head against the wall, trying to make things work, and he's been saying, "When will you get over the past?" and "When will you ever trust me again? I've been good!" and he didn't even make it TWO MONTHS before he had to put his VULGARITY in someone else's VULGARITY
The thing that really really really gets to me is that I had JUST asked him about these two trips the Day Before he confessed these events to me. And he had said. "Nope. Absolutely NOTHING happened on those trips. I've been good!"
He actually waved his index finger to indicate "1" as in he'd only had intercourse with ONE OW (multiple times), during our relationship and the False R (although there were many EAs and attempted PAs and PAs that didn't "go all the way").
He was so proud of his ONE intercourse partner record. Taunting me. As if I was just ridiculously paranoid. But it was just another lie.
Now, he still asserts that "THere are NO MORE SECRETS OR LIES. I've told you EVERYTHING." Even though more little confessions come out here and there.
How can I possibly believe him?
And why try or care?
It's hard having him in the house because he is like a continuously monitoring machine. If I am strong and pull away, he acts in ways to make me feel weak again. If I am feeling weak and need him, he pulls away and gets cold.
He says things like, "Oh. I forgot we'd broken up." or
"I'm so confused. Doesn't it feel good to be together? Don't you think we made it through the hard part?"
I have to remind him that until he really takes an honest look at himself and gets help, he's likely to remain as he is. And that means there is no way I can be with him.
The most fascinating part is that I see how Deeply Layered his lies are. He has them utterly rationalized, or convinces himself that his lies are true, or actually forgets things by will. Really forgets them until i walk him through a scenario. Then details will come back to him. Some I know he remembers quite well, but some he does seem to have suppressed.
He defends his secrets with anger and Blame shifting, etc. Sometimes he can see it later - that he's been making a smoke screen. Sometimes not.
Sometimes I feel like I'm making a huge mistake having him in the house. But financially and practically, I don't see an alternative right now.
And then there is work and dirty dishes & clothes that have to be done. ANY advice is more than welcome.
Wow-I really needed to do that, vent.
Then I moved in and the calls kept coming. Not slowing down mind you.
So, I started answering the phone and getting numerous hangups. I soon began to complain on a regular basis, so you know what he does? He turns off the house phone. Saying it's too expensive and he doesn't want to spend too much money on uneccessary stuff. (phone?) Then hestarted turning off hiss cell phone when I was home. But, he would say "The phone is a source of all our fighting and I just want to remove anything standing in the way of our relationship" I'm like just get rid of the women that I KNOW you are with.........
I will get proof.
The problem is he has a lot of experience in this. I think he's been doing this a long time....
I feel like Aretha.... in CHAIN CHAIN CHAIN....Urrrrrggghhhh
Nothing has been forthcoming in all this time.
But he recently sent me 2 IM chat invites...psycho!
yes, i ignored them!
I'm very ill now. I have good days, good weeks, and bad days, and bad weeks. I know all of his PWs. And, I cannot seem to find anything inappropriate so why is this fb thing nagging at me? I think the only way that I am ever going to get out of the dark, is to attempt to install a keylogger. But, I'm scared of what I might find, so I keep putting it off thereby remaining in the dark. Catch 22, I suppose?
[This message edited by diamondsdown at 12:06 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]
Go with your gut
Knowing he's lying and playing games and constantly keeping me off my feet and feeling crazy is enough. A loving husband does not treat you that way. I finally realized an innocent man does not constantly look so guilty.
Yes, I'm still in the dark, too. In January, 4 years after I started pushing for answers, he finally answered all my questions without yelling at me. However, it took him so long, I've still caught him lying to me since, and to date, I've seen so much more genuine emotion and concern on his part for these ow than for me, that I don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth, and I do not consider what we have anything more than a business arrangement that I stay in for my own benefit and the kids' sake. If it weren't for the kids, I'd be gone, because it is not possible to have a real relationship with someone who plays these games with you.
Do you have a reason to stay?
[This message edited by capri at 4:04 AM, September 27th (Sunday)]