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User Topic: For Those Still In The Dark
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 12:15 PM, May 1st (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was thinking about the question as to whether they also deny responsibility in other areas of their lives. I know he does, but couldn't really think of any examples outside of marital issues. But he does tend to be late quite often, and there's always a reason. He lost his job years ago due to unpunctuality, and he spent a year telling me that was MY fault. (He did finally admit that one was his fault.) I posted in general on Tuesday morning about him leaving me for half an hour in the dark in the middle of downtown with all the little kids. That also wasn't his fault, because two cars parked him in. And he called my mother's cell phone in case she was still hanging around with me, and he was very indignant that that didn't tell me how much he was concerned about me! If I point out to him that maybe he could have walked the block and a half back to get us, he would not admit that that was a possibility.

He also can't admit that his girlfriends are wrong in any of their behavior, or his family. Ever.

But he does have this funny sideways method of getting around it. He'll adamantly insist on how right he is for months or even years on end, and then one day, he'll start YELLING, "I DID apologize!" or "I DID say she was wrong to do that!" when he actually never has, and that's his story from then on. It's really bizarre, and it leaves us in this no-man's land where he is now insisting that he's forever apologizing and i somehow feel like I'm still being yelled at all the time and knowing he never actually DID apologize, just started yelling THAT he did. It's really weird. I try telling myself to accept this as the best this broken man can do, and a step forward, and somehow I'm not there yet. I guess it's the total lack of remorse. Being YELLED at that he DID apologize and you just managed never to hear it just doesn't feel like he's really sorry.

I'm rambling terribly.

Does anyone else ever feel like frauds for being here on an infidelity board? Today, I am holding, at the very same time, two completely conflicting beliefs. One is that it all makes sense now why he's gone out of his way to prevent me having any relationship with his family all these years: I bet his sister knew he was already having a full blown affair with Thing #1 and that's why she pushed so hard for him to just divorce me. It all makes sense if he was already having an affair. But he can't admit the truth, and he's afraid someone in his family will tell me what they know.

At the same time, it's like there's something inside me that won't allow me to REALLY believe this, despite all the facts and odd occurances I know of, and I wonder if maybe he just really is that stupid and has such poor boundaries with other women, and maybe it really was 'only' an ea with ow1 and ow2 all this time, and poor boundaries and stupidity with #3.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
Catsbrains
♀ Member
Member # 18868
Default  Posted: 5:04 AM, May 2nd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

missingmyheart..I feel your pain. I wish my ex husband still loved me the way he used to. I try to be strong and say it was for the best, but it still hurts.

I am soooo sorry for your pain.


BS 37
WS 42
Married 6/6/04
Dday 3/6/08
Divorce Final 4/17/08

Posts: 237 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Las Vegas
Catsbrains
♀ Member
Member # 18868
Default  Posted: 5:09 AM, May 2nd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Capri..sounds like some nuclear powered gaslighting.

I starting to analyze my marriage more and I am realizing that my ex was gaslighting throughout our relationship. I just didn't want to recognize it then.. good old hindsight.


BS 37
WS 42
Married 6/6/04
Dday 3/6/08
Divorce Final 4/17/08

Posts: 237 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: Las Vegas
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 10:04 AM, May 2nd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

capri, I agree with Cats--sounds like some major gaslighting, as well as a lot of passive-aggressive b.s.

[Note: I'm in a really bad place with all this right now, so take what I say w/a grain of salt.]

As for feeling two ways at once--not believing and wanting to believe--this pretty much sums up the purpose of gaslighting, doesn't it? To keep you off-balance, make you doubt your own senses and observations, fan that small flame of hope just enough to keep it alive . . .?

I recently ran across the statistic (again) that 85% of women who suspect their H's of cheating are right. So. *Could* your H be plagued with rotten luck and odd coincidences and stories that don't add up? It's possible. Is it *likely*? Huh-uh.

It's (unfortunately) far more likely that you have every reason to be on this board. You have to trust yourself more than you trust him.


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, May 2nd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just read this piece about gaslighting and thought I'd share:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/109220/what_is_gaslighting_.html


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
survivinglies
Member
Member # 19376
Default  Posted: 9:45 AM, May 4th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been on some of the other forums in the past few days, but I used to lurk on this one a lot searching for confirmation. Read my profile. Trust your gut! WH made me feel like I was going crazy. I knew. It took a long time. I have no advice on how to get the truth out of them- every circumstance is different, but the 180 helps. I was always to weak to stick to my guns. I wanted to believe the lie so badly!! If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's an f***ing duck! R will go nowhere until the whole truth is revealed.


BS (me)
WS (him)- ONS 1995, 3 month EA 0708
Married: 18, Together: 20, DS & DD
"Onlies" until ONS
95-98 trickle-"we didn't have sex"
D-day #1 (1/23/2008- EA OW#2)
D-day #2 (5/1/2008- ONS OW#1)
Isaiah 40:31

Posts: 1397 | Registered: May 2008 | From: U.S., just a few miles south of insanity
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, May 4th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

survivinglies,

Thanks for posting this. I read your profile earlier. Wow. What a testament to the power and accuracy of our instincts! I can only imagine the relief, and I long for it every day--even though I know there's a big difference between "knowing" and *knowing.*


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 10:27 AM, May 4th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is really bugging me. I need to get it out.

I emailed a friend of mine something about gaslighting, how exasperated I've become with it, etc.--basically just pouring my heart out a little.

She emails back that a lot of women "claim problems in their marriages" around menopause (I'm in my late forties).

WTF?

Made me feel gaslighted in a whole new way.

Have you guys gotten this type of reaction from people IRL you've confided in? I've decided to let it go. I've also decided I'm not talking to anybody about this again. They just don't get it.



Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
survivinglies
Member
Member # 19376
Default  Posted: 12:19 PM, May 4th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Capri-
I just read your profile. Have you read mine? My WH's A (which I was in the dark for 13 years) had me doubt every other female contact and fishy story for the entire 13 years! I'd be willing to bet that your situation is very similar to mine. Stay strong. Never be afraid to make him angry (unless he's abusive) or hurt his feelings. Trust your gut. You can do it. Get an MC to help you if you need help. Send him the article about the jigsaw puzzle. That really helped my WH realize that I needed to know the whole truth. Do the 180. It's not too late. I started, after being pathetically clingy after the January d-day. I forget what it's called, but it's quite common. I know you are feeling like you are going crazy.

Jitterbug-
Your friend clearly has no idea what she's talking about. I'm sure she was just trying to alleviate your fears and make you feel better. You need people to talk to- even if it's here at SI. At first, I told no one, but I feel so much better getting it out. Some people at least know some of what happened. I have told one friend the whole story, and of course I shout it to the rooftops here.


BS (me)
WS (him)- ONS 1995, 3 month EA 0708
Married: 18, Together: 20, DS & DD
"Onlies" until ONS
95-98 trickle-"we didn't have sex"
D-day #1 (1/23/2008- EA OW#2)
D-day #2 (5/1/2008- ONS OW#1)
Isaiah 40:31

Posts: 1397 | Registered: May 2008 | From: U.S., just a few miles south of insanity
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

jitterbug, ignore your friend. If she's right, then I've been in menopause for many years, while bearing many children! Sadly, I think many people just don't get it until they're in that situation. Or they are suffering from the same disbelief we are, that such a nice guy couldn't do that. But, they aren't faced with the evidences and nagging feelings that we are, so it's easy for them to dismiss.

survivinglies, I went and read your profile. And, sadly, I've got a couple similar incidents that I didn't even bother putting in my profile: coming home 5 hours late one day, shortly after our first son was born, with a story about how the bus didn't come and then he lost track of time and missed the next one, and then the third one didn't come again, blahblahblah. Well, it was Ireland. Buses did tend not to come. I experienced it plenty of times myself. But FIVE HOURS???? I do wonder about that now.

In another incident, he went out for a drink on his birthday, and the next morning lost his job for being two hours late to work, blamed that on me for a few years because I was visiting my parents instead of there to get him out of bed and about 13 years after the fact, started telling me how he's sure someone put a 'date rape' type drug in his drink. Okay... so how did he get home with that in his system? Yeah, I wonder about that one, too.

Reading your profile, the words are exactly the same. I'm forever hearing: "You want me to tell you I f*cked her when I didn't?" and "So the only way I can save this marriage is to admit to something I didn't do?"

I have sent or told him the jigsaw analogy and he just yells at me that I do have all the pieces of the puzzle and I just don't want to see it.

We have been to two mcs. He lied to both, and one even told me having coffee with a co-worker at the end of a shift is no big deal, and maybe he could actually help us when I got over my anger!

I think I'm doing the 180. I pretty much spend my day in my office writing, or cleaning the house or playing the piano. We talk about our upcoming trip to Scotland because it has to get planned, and he tells me a bit about what went on at work. I show an interest in that mainly in case any information slips. Is that enough 180? Sometimes I think apparently it's not, since he doesn't really seem to care, but I do have to admit, I feel better.

Oh, and jitterbug, about passive aggressive-- his middle name! It should be his first and last, too.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 5:32 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks surviving and capri for the words about my friend. She's always been very supportive, so I knew I wasn't reacting reasonably--I'm just glad I didn't write anything back in the heat of the moment!

So the only way I can save this marriage is to admit to something I didn't do?

ACK!!! How many times have I heard this?!? Gaslighting, lying asshat!

And as for lying to counselors? Get this: I caught my H in a lie during a counseling session. He said he wasn't lying. I said, ye-e-e-s, you *are.* He said no, he wasn't, "I swear!"

Stupid idiot. So I gave him the proof. The counselor (stupid idiot #2) told my H to admit that he made a mistake and to assure me it wouldn't happen again. Golly, now why didn't *I* think of that?

But here's the kicker: The counselor told me (I am not making this up) that my H "doesn't lie so much as he doesn't tell the truth."

I should have bought lottery tickets with the money we paid that man. Maybe then I'd at least be writing this from Paris!


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 5:41 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is that enough 180? Sometimes I think apparently it's not, since he doesn't really seem to care, but I do have to admit, I feel better.

If you're feeling better, that's what matters. Just keep reminding yourself that you're doing the 180 for *you*--to get stronger and to disengage from the craziness.


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 11:13 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We've been through 2 mc's, too. Unfortunately, I didn't know he was lying to them at the time.

We had a similar incident with a counselor. I found a *little* (cough) credit card bill he'd been keeping very quiet about. We're talking double digit K's, ya know? the counselor explained to me that men may have their image very tied up in providing and not asking for help in paying the bills, and he gave fwh a little verbal slap on the wrist and said, "You'll tell her from now on about the finances, right?"

Okay, yeah, that really changed things. I asked questions the other day and it turns out he's run up another debt.

I'm starting to think marriage counselors are getting their certification out of a box of cracker jacks.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 11:43 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So much pain and frustration here.

As I was reading to catch up, I was thinking...I would not want to be with a gaslighting, deceiving, natural born liar...damn, what a waste of space & my precious life!

Fortunately, I'm being helped by a terrific IC so I'm a lot further along on the roller coaster.

However, I still need to know...especially about The Financials.
WH finally admitted that the stock he was buying from his company starting May of 06 was what he cancelled 3 months later ...he very quietly never said a thing to me about it so dummy me was thinking up to last month that we had all this particular stock!

NO way can I spend the rest of my life with a man who pulls these stunts!

I feel like I've been living with a man who had had a very rich Dual Life going and this is how he can only relate.
The more I read about that Austrian incest dungeon MONSTER living his Dual Life and deceiving his wife/everyone, I note ALL the Red Flag similarities and the personality and character disorders rife with my sick WH.

Roses for us all!

Huge hugs, everyone

PS For the record, WH has not been late nor absent ONE time from his job (in fact, he will be up hours early when he has a new schedule change), he's thorough, meticulous, and The Model Employee. hehehe

[This message edited by dreamlife at 11:54 PM, May 5th (Monday)]


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 6:13 AM, May 6th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The more I read about that Austrian incest dungeon MONSTER living his Dual Life and deceiving his wife/everyone, I note ALL the Red Flag similarities and the personality and character disorders rife with my sick WH.

Geeeeez, dreamlife, that is truly scary! Thank God you're out of that marriage--and that you didn't have kids with this "man"!


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 6:21 AM, May 6th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm starting to think marriage counselors are getting their certification out of a box of cracker jacks.

Yeah--we should all be checking those certificates on the wall: "Massters Deegree in Sycology from Billy Bob's Online Sycology Skool."


Posts: 490 | Registered: Dec 2007
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 8:49 AM, May 6th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HEY!!! How did you know??? Were you seeing the same guy?!

(Seriously, it's kind of scary. MC1 had founded his own very busy center, written two books on marriage, is very active doing marriage seminars around here, and was highly recommended by our priest. I liked him in a lot of ways, and I think he was actually onto FWH. He knew something, I don't know how. But his ultimate advice to me was to pretend the lies weren't really lies, just... 'inexplicable'... and pretend everything is okay.

MC2 has five million letters after his name and is on some board to certify new marriage counselors in the state! He's the one who couldn't differentiate between a casual cup of coffee after work and lying to your wife for years on end about those coffees and having very intimate conversations during them.

I also saw IC #1 at my priest's recommendation (same center as MC1, but I thought I'd hope for better since fwh wasn't there to lie). She told me I have NO PROOF so I should just focus on the positives, and asked me a dozen times how I feel about that. I said I felt that if that's how it is, I can do whatever I want in this marriage, as long as I make sure he never gets PROOF. And seriously, I believe wholeheartedly in focusing on the positives, but I'd been doing that for years, and still try to, but it's not putting my mind at ease about all the odd stories.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
dreamlife
♀ Member
Member # 8142
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, May 6th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What is very frightening to me, personally, is that MY own WH is just a "hair" away from getting his Theology degree from the same major Catholic university he got his MBA at & HE HATES ORGANIZED RELIGION!

How scary...is...this...??

(He has done his thesis -- now all he has left to do is fly back & do his *orals* -- which he'd pass in a heartbeat).


~XWH told me what I wanted to hear but he always did whatever he wanted to do~

Posts: 25351 | Registered: Sep 2005
capri
♀ Member
Member # 14940
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, May 6th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sadly, my only experience with such a thing (someone who hates religion getting degrees in it) is a friend of mine in college who freely admitted he was studying theology and religion in order to launch a better attack on them. Other than that, I can't understand it, and I hate to think the worst of people-- which is, of course, why I've been an idiot about my dearly beloved husband for so long.


Me: free of the secrets and lies!!!
Divorced 10/2011

Posts: 4483 | Registered: Jun 2007
JitterbugRag
♀ Member
Member # 17294
Default  Posted: 6:08 PM, May 7th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm . . . some very curious psychological dynamics at work here. People who do the opposite of what they believe in to . . . what? . . . validate themselves?

It harkens back to something I posted about my H earlier--how he often tells me what he's NOT doing (e.g., "I'm NOT just saying this for your benefit . . ."). I paid particular attention to this the last time we talked, and I swear it was the bulk of his side of the conversation. Telling me what he's NOT doing.

It's no sooner out of his mouth that I'm thinking he's doing exactly what he says he's not doing.

I should have just gotten myself a nice dog.


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