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User Topic: One Night Stand Support Thread
Wind Knocked Out
♀ Member
Member # 22586
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, January 31st (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the hugs.

This is such a blow. He really IS my best friend. He knows me better than anyone, and has cared for me more deeply than I ever thought I deserved. And vice versa. He's a best friend who did a really shitty thing, and he did it out of a desperation and a feeling of being trapped in something he couldn't change. The funny thing is he wasn't patient enough to realize that the shitty thing was exactly the catalyst for change that he was probably looking for.


BGF(31)
One of my favorite movies has a line in it: "It has to hurt if it's to heal."
I was already broken when my relationship fractured. He hurt my heart terribly, but I decided to heal that and the rest of me, too. THAT's my NB.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Jan 2009
1Marley
♀ Member
Member # 22281
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, January 31st (Saturday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wind... I'm so sorry. I'm just getting caught up on days of posts and read your story. E-hugs just aren't enough. Surround yourself with people who love you and will remind you that when one door closes another opens (truly).

I am a big fan of removing the "things" that were part of my husband's betrayal. The first, sadly, was our bed. Then our sheets. It's helpful that we moved from where we were because I know that if it had happened while I will still living with him overseas that I would have been on the next flight home, with or without him. I dread the day that my husband tells me he has to go on a business trip to that country. At this point, I don't see myself allowing him to go back there, ever. I think for awhile he will understand, but I guess there will be a point when he can't put off his career. Then what? I have no clue.

Pugwash-- your posts are very insightful and make me realize the importance of focusing on the reconciliation. It's a two way street, regardless of the fact that I didn't put us there. I'm sorry that things seem to be continually heartbreaking for you.

Much love and support to everyone in the forum.


Posts: 80 | Registered: Jan 2009
Devestatedx5
♀ Member
Member # 16557
Default  Posted: 12:31 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dread the day that my husband tells me he has to go on a business trip to that country. At this point, I don't see myself allowing him to go back there, ever. I think for awhile he will understand, but I guess there will be a point when he can't put off his career. Then what? I have no clue.

Since my husband's ONS took place in Brazil (#1 country of legal prostitution), I told him within HOURS of Dday that he could NEVER go back there or marriage was done. That was over 16 months ago, and I STILL stand by that requirement.

He's had to do some very FAST talking over the last 16-months to KEEP from being sent back there from his company. Tough cookies. Consequence.

Yes, someday it may be a "deal-breaker" at/for his job. But it'll ALWAYS be a deal-breaker with me. His choice.


FBS-me (49)
FWH(57) ONS 8.19.07
Dday: 9.19.07
Married +26 years
RE-MARRIED 4.28.11
----------
Proverbs 31:10-31
Sometimes people are SO open-minded that that their brains fall out.

Posts: 2598 | Registered: Oct 2007
ohpuhlease
♀ Member
Member # 13679
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, someday it may be a "deal-breaker" at/for his job. But it'll ALWAYS be a deal-breaker with me. His choice.

Very awesome advice and I've never thought of it that way.

Marley, it's only been within the last 3 or 4 months the only control I'm concerned with is my own. For now, certainly think about what you will do, if it is a boundary or not, but don't let it take away from immediate healing you need to do now. Yes, it's legit to worry about the future but your so new, try not to be that hard on yourself.


Those who know others are intelligent. Those who know themselves are truly wise. - Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching


Posts: 5714 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: *Proudly Canadian...Eh!*
Pugwash5
♂ Member
Member # 10430
Default  Posted: 7:05 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OhPuhlease-

I am at heart, a pleaser. And prone to taking the weight of the relationship, and it's troubles on my shoulders.

Naturally, after her "fling" (I found love notes to the guy) I stepped up my efforts to work harder and make her happy.

Sadly, there are few really qualified MC's out there, and we went to two of them who did not help. (She liked the second one, but I couldn't believe some of the stuff we did, or did not do in session).

About a year and a half ago, I walked into a classy jewelry store (I know next to nothing about jewelry) and bought her a beautiful pair of jade earrings. When she opened the present, she took one look at them, her face fell, and she told me she really wanted diamond earrings. (Amazingly, when she talked of this in MC, the MC remarked that I had teased my wife with this gift!).

I realized at this point that I was a starving man, and as such, could be kept happy with even a few crumbs thrown my way. I wasn't going to get even those crumbs in this relationship.

As I started to put together inventory of what I needed in a relationship, and even moreso, what I wanted, it started becoming very clear to me that there were serious deficiencies in the marriage that I could not do anything about.

So to clarify the answer to your question, it took me about two years of working and digging to "get it". After that, it has been a process of clarifying and making myself ready for the break.


It matters not how strait the gait, how charged with punishment the scrolls, I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul...

The Present is the living sum-total of the Past.

Filed for divorce 8-4-10
Three incredible kids 18,14, 11
Her:


Posts: 341 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Northeast
Pugwash5
♂ Member
Member # 10430
Default  Posted: 7:13 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wind-

I am truly sorry for yor loss and what you are going through. I know it is deeply painful. But please do not blame yourself. You have done absolutely nothing to bring this on.

There is a deficiency somewhere in him, and as difficult as this may be to hear, if he does not come back, it will be for the best. You deserve something better for yourself.

(((wind)))

Pug


It matters not how strait the gait, how charged with punishment the scrolls, I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul...

The Present is the living sum-total of the Past.

Filed for divorce 8-4-10
Three incredible kids 18,14, 11
Her:


Posts: 341 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Northeast
Wind Knocked Out
♀ Member
Member # 22586
Default  Posted: 7:40 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I did do something wrong. More than just one thing. It doesn't make the cheating okay, for sure. But that's not why we're ending...or rather, why he's ending it. The problems in our relationship were fixable...it's just taken me too long to realize that fixing them didn't mean being patient and waiting for WS to change. It meant me taking a hard look at how I behave(d) and recognizing that that needed to be different. That I love WS for who he is, flaws and all, and not for who I was trying to make him be. No wonder he got frustrated.

So I know it's not all my fault...he's got faults too. And I know I wasn't the one who cheated. But I finally see some strength in myself to make real changes, but it's just too late in his mind.

It's devastating to finally realize what track you're supposed to be on, and you get there just as the train is pulling away from the station.


BGF(31)
One of my favorite movies has a line in it: "It has to hurt if it's to heal."
I was already broken when my relationship fractured. He hurt my heart terribly, but I decided to heal that and the rest of me, too. THAT's my NB.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Jan 2009
ohpuhlease
♀ Member
Member # 13679
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pug...

About a year and a half ago, I walked into a classy jewelry store (I know next to nothing about jewelry) and bought her a beautiful pair of jade earrings. When she opened the present, she took one look at them, her face fell, and she told me she really wanted diamond earrings. (Amazingly, when she talked of this in MC, the MC remarked that I had teased my wife with this gift!).

Oh. My. Gawd! Holy crap. No wonder the MC didn't work out for you.


Wind, you are correct that it is very important to recognize pre A problems for both H and W. From my own experience, I know I wasn't the best person before my H had his ONS. I was so consumed with frustration, anger, resentment and tons of other things, that I know I treated him badly. It's nothing I'm proud of but it was all I knew at the time. I didn't know why I was reacting the way I was which was really out of fear, insecurities, hurt, feeling lost, etc...

But regardless of how difficult a relationship is, and as you said, the problems in your relationship were fixable, there is no reason or excuse for infidelity. That was solely his choice while he could've decided to S at that time but he didn't.

I know it can seem like a very fine line at times but really he had other options than to have an exit ONS that would hurt you further.

But I finally see some strength in myself to make real changes, but it's just too late in his mind.

No hun, you can't change his mind but you can work on yourself. You've found a bit of strength so continue on yourself to make the internal changes you want.


Those who know others are intelligent. Those who know themselves are truly wise. - Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching


Posts: 5714 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: *Proudly Canadian...Eh!*
Pugwash5
♂ Member
Member # 10430
Default  Posted: 7:54 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wind-

Relationships are complex and intricate things. We all make mistakes, we all grow. It is the commitment to one another that stays. Apparently, he does not have the commitment to grow and work on this. That is very sad, but it does not diminish you in any way.

If it truly is over, than you can take the time you need to grieve this relationship, and the growth you have had, and find someone who is truly committed to your relationship.

It is sad to watch something you want pull away, but you didn't leave, and you didn't drive him away. He left. That is on him. It doesn't make you feel better at this point, but in time, you will see what is real.

I am sorry for your loss.


It matters not how strait the gait, how charged with punishment the scrolls, I am the master of my fate, the captain of my soul...

The Present is the living sum-total of the Past.

Filed for divorce 8-4-10
Three incredible kids 18,14, 11
Her:


Posts: 341 | Registered: Apr 2006 | From: Northeast
healingtree
♀ Member
Member # 15467
Default  Posted: 8:20 AM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Wind)))

Some people just run. They can't understand that a relationship isn't a fairy tale that is always perfect...and they are so invested in getting their own needs met, in their own way, that when things change, they'd rather bail then do the hard work that might keep the relationship together and make it better.

Don't take the responsibility on yourself...you were willing to try and work it out, which was a huge gift to him.

Sounds like he is lacking emotional maturity. And if he had stayed, he would have had to grow up, accept his faults, and change.

You had no control over his choices.

But you can continue to grow and heal through this time.

Stop blaming yourself my dear.



FBS 1st D-day 7-11-07, 2nd DDay Post-Breakup in 8-12
HIM - Doesn't Matter Anymore
The only thing we can change about the past is how we look at it.

Posts: 8329 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Here and Now
Wind Knocked Out
♀ Member
Member # 22586
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, February 1st (Sunday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow. Okay, he's going to be staying here tonight (there's a sofa bed in our office). I think this is more about convenience, and he'll have to start figuring out what he's taking and stuff.

Over this past weekend, since he broke us up on Friday, I've been doing some majorly heavy soul searching, as I've written about here. I also ended up writing him a letter about things. Kind of as closure for myself, although also indicating that I still have hope even though I know that's futile (as he made clear). Other than that last bit about hope (which I acknowledge as futile in the letter), the letter is not needy or pleading. It acknowledges things that I wish I'd done differently, things that I understand now, after going through the aftermath of ONS and really thinking about our relationship, and also talking about some of the great things from our relationship that I'll miss.

Although I wish otherwise, I'm resigned to the fact that my letter (and more importantly, the truth of the stuff inside it) won't really have any effect, I just want to say it myself, so that I tried. At least I tried. I want him to understand that I'm finally hearing the things he's been trying to tell me, maybe my own "fog" is finally lifting because of how raw this has all been.

So if I give him the letter, it might give him some understanding of what's been going on with me (which could give him a reason to rethink things in some hypothetical future), but it could also make him think that I'm not really hearing him that this is breaking up. I don't want him to think I'm just trying to push him to come back. While I'd like that more than anything, because of how much more I'm seeing now, it's really that he should have more information when looks at his future and considers whether we should share ours together. It's a lot to ask, given what we've gone through, but I don't think it's too much to ask.

So now I have to decide, do I give it to him? I know I'm being an idiot for hoping. I just can't quite seem to turn it off.

[This message edited by Wind Knocked Out at 9:30 AM, February 2nd (Monday)]


BGF(31)
One of my favorite movies has a line in it: "It has to hurt if it's to heal."
I was already broken when my relationship fractured. He hurt my heart terribly, but I decided to heal that and the rest of me, too. THAT's my NB.

Posts: 76 | Registered: Jan 2009
rain7
♀ Member
Member # 20336
Default  Posted: 12:58 AM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I say give it to him. What do you have to lose at this point? A little bit of pride, perhaps, but that is a small sacrifice if he is really what you want. I think, after reading your posts, that you'll regret it more if you DON'T give it to him. Of course, that is just MHO. Good luck.

Edited to add: I realize it is probably after the fact by now, given the late hour. Sorry!

[This message edited by rain7 at 12:59 AM, February 2nd (Monday)]


BS: Me, 42.
WS: Him, 42.
Married 18 years on 11/03/08!
Together 20.
Two DDs: 17 and 13.
ONS 07/16/08.
D-Day: 07/18/08.
In R.

Posts: 390 | Registered: Jul 2008
rainbowlittle
♀ Member
Member # 22334
Default  Posted: 1:38 AM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i have been quiet but lurking for some days now....but really need your support...
I am stuck in a strange situation....my emotions are all over the place, i am almost always thinking about "it" and kind of keep thinking that i cannot accept this and live in this marriage...but then keep going back to the thought that i must for my kid...but how? i cannot fathom living with this pain for so long ...we are young realtively 35 and 37 so it is posisble? then when WH is acting strange...i think i just give up....he mirrors my feelings...in the sense when i am angry and hurting he does the same angry and hurting behaviour towards me...if i am loving reaching out he does that but the moment i interrogate or probe for something he gets his defenses up....i really cant take this anymore....do any of you have this kind of experience...i am 5 months out but do i really wait to decide? or is it what i am thinking ...no hope at all....
this is compounded by the fact that i feel that even if i try to reconcile with this but it probably is a dealbreaker for me and after working hard for 2 yrs i might realise that it not working out and then i will have to have the responsibility to end it....i feel guilty already for that ...so want to close this NOW....but i think about my daughter ...why should she be without her father she loves, and her full family unit, her security, her comforts, her privileges..(we lead a very comfortable financial life)..i just am at the end of my rope....
WH doesnt give an inch. is it ego or what?


Bad marriages don't cause infidelity; infidelity causes bad marriages.
-Frank Pittman


Posts: 88 | Registered: Jan 2009
ohpuhlease
♀ Member
Member # 13679
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((rainbow)))

I know it hurts.

There were 2 things that stuck out for me in your post. First is that you only learned about this 5 months ago, and the second is that you've only been posting on SI for a month. I know 5 months can seem like a lifetime when dealing with this type of pain, but it truly isn't that long when you are dealing with this type of serious trauma. They say it can take 2 to 5 years, and just being over 2 years myself, I believe it.

Also, I know you are a busy Mom with little ones at home but if you can post your thoughts and feelings more often, sometimes that can lead to some clarity as well. Some times just seeing our own words in writing is what we need to work through things.

i cannot fathom living with this pain for so long ...

Whether you decide to stay or leave the M, you are going to have to face the pain. The ONS will always be there. If you stay in the M and want to R, then you have that to deal with. If you decide you want to D, the ONS will still be there but you'll have other types of problems to deal with. There is no easy answer. It's what action you decide to take is the important thing. Although I am a firm believer in fence sitting until we can make up our minds, there does come a time when we do have to decide. Living in limbo is so tough and once a decision is made, many people can have a sense of relief. You don't have to decide today, but really start shifting your thoughts to the realities of both worlds whether you try to R or D.

he mirrors my feelings...

I would sit him down and talk about this. Tell him that sometimes when you are angry and hurting, his defensiveness pushes you away even more. Tell him that sometimes these are just things that you need to work through and sometimes a hug or reassurance would help diminish your anger.

Anger is always a symptom of something below the surface. It could be fear, insecurity, abandonment, loneliness, etc...but we are never just 'angry'. Figure out what it is your feeling and tell him.

You can't control how he will react to you but you can give him the proper guidance by telling him what you need. What he does with that information is up to him.

and after working hard for 2 yrs i might realise that it not working out and then i will have to have the responsibility to end it....

Yes, this may happen but it's not happenning right now is it? You don't know what is going to happen in a couple years. And, the two options at that time is either you're both working at a successful R or you know you stuck it out and gave it your best shot even though it didn't work.

Have you been able to get into MC or IC?


Those who know others are intelligent. Those who know themselves are truly wise. - Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching


Posts: 5714 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: *Proudly Canadian...Eh!*
1Marley
♀ Member
Member # 22281
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rainbow... I so understand how you feel.

I don't think you are ready to make a decision yet. I think that when you do make the decision to leave or stay, it needs to be one that you have found peace with. Right now you are waffling back and forth (naturally), and are in no state to make a clear decision. I know because I am in the same place.

I can't stress how important individual and couples counseling has been for us. It's been hard and it's still early, but I can honestly say I look forward to going every week. If nothing else, it gives me the sense that I have (some) control over the situation we are in.

Incidentally, my husband and I had another "talk" last night. Nothing new was revealed, it was more of a way for me to check in and make sure he still feels shame over what he did. He was visibly uncomfortable, and kept trying to make jokes to lighten the mood. At one point he said "you know how much I hate emotional talks", to which my response was, "too bad".

I think that your husband has yet to show you true remorse, which is what is causing many of your doubts. Maybe in his mind he thinks he has, but he needs to understand how you are feeling now. Please, insist on regular counseling and have a professional mediate your conversations.


Posts: 80 | Registered: Jan 2009
healingtree
♀ Member
Member # 15467
Default  Posted: 11:20 AM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wind...

So he tells you that he is leaving and never ever coming back?

Then he comes back?

I am going to be honest here.

You sound like a giver...willing to work through this and grow beyond it, taking responsibility for your part in the relationship...forgiving him for the ONS...

And he sounds like he is trying to work you over.

Sorry but that is what it looks like from HTs computer screen.

He scares you into thinking that its over
REALLY over, thats what he said right?
And then you tell him all the things you were doing wrong, and say please lets give it another shot?

So....what...you tell him that you are just going to forgive him, and work on your own problems?


Hon...

The worst thing I can remember doing early after d-day was beg for my H not to leave.

I'm not saying you are begging - that is what I did. On my knees...God I was so pathetic in that moment.

And the best moment? The very best? Was when I saw that I was not giving MY feelings, MY needs, MY rights, any kind of value at all.

The very best moment, the moment that probably SAVED our M, was when he said he wasn't going to "live like this" and I said, You know where the door is, you want to leave? LEAVE.

If you all are ever ever going to heal together...

He needs to own his shit.
Period.

Sorry for the 2x4...but you sound so much like I used to be. Not a bad thing...but WAY TOO NICE.

IMPORTANT ETA -

You have continued to say that you have "done bad things"...so without knowing what they are, I guess I am assuming that they are not as bad as infidelity.

So...maybe sharing some of these things you have done would help shed some light on your sitch.

However - if you were physically abusing him, or had a serious drug or alcohol problem that you left unaddressed - even then...he should have tried to fix it, or left. Cheating on you was not the answer.

PM me if you think I can help you sort through any of this...just want you to stop blaming yourself for all this. You can't fix what is broken in him, no matter what you do to fix you.

BIG HUG

[This message edited by healingtree at 11:49 AM, February 2nd (Monday)]


FBS 1st D-day 7-11-07, 2nd DDay Post-Breakup in 8-12
HIM - Doesn't Matter Anymore
The only thing we can change about the past is how we look at it.

Posts: 8329 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Here and Now
bummedhusband
♂ Member
Member # 22558
Default  Posted: 12:06 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has anyone ever left their spouse over a ONS? My wife had a 'well-planned' ONS (maybe a couple of times, but short-lived) with a guy she met on myspace, and at the time I took a lot of the blame upon myself, tried to reconcile, etc., but I did move out because she had taken up with a lot of younger friends, although I really don't think she was sleeping around after the ONS. Well, now about 9 months later, I feel like I've opened my eyes and see things in a different light. This affected me far more than I had thought, and I really don't feel like reconciling anymore. I don't think my WW ever really understood the damage the ONS did to me/us, which is another thing that has turned me off. Also the entire myspace thing, she kept a secret phone for another guy she met on myspace, although once again I only think she had the one-time physical meeting with the first guy. It was enough for me, but as you can see I still have doubts/regrets that this has affected my so much. I have filed paperwork for divorce BTW. My WS thinks I'm way overreacting, but it has been eating me up, especially that other phone that came along months after the ONS.


Me: BH 49yo, Married 20+years
DD: April 2008
Divorce was final in February 2009

Posts: 268 | Registered: Jan 2009
ohpuhlease
♀ Member
Member # 13679
Default  Posted: 12:53 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey bummed.

I don't know if anyone has broken up over a ONS.

IMHO, any type of break up or divorce over the A is one thing, whether its a ONS, LTA, EA or PA. For many the dealbreaker is the ongoing secretiveness and deceit because the FWS just doesn't *get* it.

For alot of BSs, the ongoing lying and deceit is a whole other demon to slay. From your post, the hiding, lying and not being remorseful were really the final straw for you. From what you said, it was a ONS with one man and than an EA with another just waiting for opportunity.

As with any A, I honestly believe that an M can come out stronger despite everything but that is only when two people can put in the effort and make R and their M a priorty.


Those who know others are intelligent. Those who know themselves are truly wise. - Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching


Posts: 5714 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: *Proudly Canadian...Eh!*
itspjw
♀ Member
Member # 21268
Default  Posted: 3:54 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hi all,

i'm sorry i haven't been around much...you know how we all go through those times when all we can think about is what happened, and how do we deal with it? that's where i've been for a while.

i wanted to ask a question. actualy, i wanted to ask all of you if you have asked your spouse a question. i asked my wh how he could let himself do this, and how can i have any reassurance it won't happen again. he tells me he is working on the answer--and i believe him, because even today, he told me he just wanted me to know he is still working on that, but he is still trying to figure out how to put it in words and have it come out the way he means. my h has a hard time with words and explaining himself, so i can see that.

after dday, i told myself i have to give it six months before i make a decision to leave. that will be march 11, so it won't be too much longer. i also need the answer to this question before i can decide. he knows that.

i guess what i am asking is...is this question reasonable of me to ask? did you ask your s this? if so, did you get an answer?


no, I can't take one more step towards you...cuz all that's waiting is regret...

there's just too much that time cannot erase

dday 9/11/08

And the more I know, the less I understand

Because of you...I am afraid...


Posts: 14786 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Texas
ohpuhlease
♀ Member
Member # 13679
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, February 2nd (Monday), 2009View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hiya itsjpw!


i guess what i am asking is...is this question reasonable of me to ask?

Sure it's a fair question.

did you ask your s this?

You bet.

if so, did you get an answer?

Yes I did. And even though it was verbally all the right things that I wanted to *hear*, none if it really rang true until he reinforced everything with his actions. The continued work in R. The continued transparency. The continued IC and MC. The ongoing process of rebuilding our M, when each day I could place more faith into him and us.

I knew when I asked it that no answer would really make me feel secure because the truth is that I will never have that level of control over him. I can't follow him around and at some point I have to let that go.

I found when I let go of the false sense of control, is really when I got more control over those thoughts and feelings.

Keep in mind we were a very long time out when I figured this out. It took alot of work from both of us to find that peace again.


Those who know others are intelligent. Those who know themselves are truly wise. - Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching


Posts: 5714 | Registered: Feb 2007 | From: *Proudly Canadian...Eh!*
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