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User Topic: Agnostic/Atheist Support Group
keeponkeepingon
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Member # 32935
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, March 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wanted to share what I found recently.

The 10 Commandments for Atheists
1. Resilience-Keep going even when things look dark.
2. Empathy-Connecting to suffering or experiences of another person.
3. Patience-Grow calmer by being realistic about how things actually tend to go.
4. Sacrifice-How can you love someone, raise a family, or service the planet if we don't sacrifice?
5. Politeness-Linked to tolerance. WE must live along people that we will not agree with.
6. Humor
7. Self-Awareness-Having a sense of what's going on inside onself, not blame others for moods or troubles.
8. Forgiveness-Errors must be excused so we can live with others.
9. Hope-Pessimism isn't necessarily deep, nor optimism shallow.
10. Confidence-It isn't arrogance. It's based on awareness of how short life is and how little we ultimately lose from ridking everything.


"I know you and you know me and I know you can see. So help me get my way back to you"

Posts: 1005 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: On the corner of Grey St at the end of the world
doodley
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Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, March 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That list is fantastic, keeponkeepingon. Thank you for posting it.


It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. ~Albus Dumbledore

Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: GA
catlover50
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Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 7:54 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great list.

Also wanted to comment on atheists not having morals. I consider atheist morality to be the truest kind, since we are expecting no reward or punishment.

I have thought long and hard about right and wrong and feel that I have a strong moral code. Not just avoiding hurting others but actually trying to contribute to their happiness. If only my fWH had done the same. ( he's not an atheist)



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Neithan
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Member # 35924
Default  Posted: 9:30 PM, March 30th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have thought long and hard about right and wrong and feel that I have a strong moral code. Not just avoiding hurting others but actually trying to contribute to their happiness. If only my fWH had done the same. (he's not an atheist)

Ditto for me.

My WW is quite active in church, heavily involved in leadership roles, both before and after her affair. Her affair partner was a minister from another denomination, and one of the things that she liked about him was that he was more spiritual than I was.

She even wrote to a gal pal of hers that she would consider leaving me for him (not that he offered to leave his own wife for her, he only took what my WW offered of her body.)

Have you seen that bumper sticker? "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

Not by me...


Me: BH
Her: WW
D-Day: 2/19/2010
Married 1981
That which does not kill me makes me more irritable

Posts: 333 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Among the Gaurwaith
catlover50
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Default  Posted: 6:40 PM, March 31st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ooh Neithan, that is tough.

And the irony was lost on your WW?

For me, there is no higher power ready to forgive me of my sins. I try hard to minimize sinning in the first place and try not to rationalize when I do. It's a journey.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Neithan
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Member # 35924
Default  Posted: 5:30 PM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And the irony was lost on your WW?

Well, not completely. Maybe. She's either so paralyzed by shame that she can't talk about any of it anymore or it really hasn't affected her all that deeply.

But compounding the whole thing is the fact that WW is a Unitarian (and I'm not averse to going to said services when convenient, and communing with my fellow Unitarian agnostic humanists) and her AP is a fundamentalist-type christian evangelical minister.


Me: BH
Her: WW
D-Day: 2/19/2010
Married 1981
That which does not kill me makes me more irritable

Posts: 333 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Among the Gaurwaith
Ashland13
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Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I grew up Episcopalian with a mother employed to run the Sunday school. My father is to this day very controlling and we did not miss a Sunday or holiday, even if we chanced a snore at Christmas Eve service.

I also worked a season at a Christian camp and I work as a church musician.

It's the strangest thing, because after my H's affair, I find myself questioning a world with a "God above" who would give us a world where such things happen.

I believe some things, like those ideas that God doesn't tell people what to do or not do and so on, good or evil. And I hear all the stuff people say about making sure we don't blame God when something bad happens to us or someone we are close to.

So many do's and don't's about God, it's hard to know at all.

I do know that ever since my husband's affair, as I started to say, I believed a tiny bit. In some of the concepts, that is, but about an actual being of some type, I'm not sure anymore.

And yet I sit and hear sermons and play hymns many Sundays of the year.

I think if religion and God were something we could actually see or feel with a hand or foot...and if as kids we were not forced to go...maybe it would be diffeernt as adults when we could make up our own minds?

I will say that I am sad there are those religions that make going to church something to do because a person did a bad thing. I know people who go for the music or friends they made there -my daughter goes for the snacks, lol-some people just go to pray and be in the building for a short time.

I have heard peope tell me that they take different things from religious messages, also and that helped me.

Thanks for this thread. It's a really confusing subject.

My H is atheist and I've been studying what it is about. It's really an interesting concept, I think and I don't think its necessarily a terrible thing to be. I think its okay to believe, too.


Ashland 13

You gave me nothing and now it's all I've got - Bono

A person is a person, no matter how small. -Dr. Suess

Perserverance and spirit have done wonders in all ages.

-George Washington


Posts: 2289 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: New England
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, April 1st (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H is atheist and I've been studying what it is about. It's really an interesting concept, I think and I don't think its necessarily a terrible thing to be. I think its okay to believe, too.

Hm. Calling yourself an atheist doesn't really mean much other than to come out. Otherwise it's like walking up to someone and saying "I am a theist." It solidifies certain basic assumptions - whether or not you believe in supernatural causes - but, beyond that, things like ethics and morality are entirely different subjects.

Someone can say "I believe in god" and abuse that without really thinking deeply on what it means, and someone can say "I don't believe in anything" and abuse it the same way; there are so many different religious moralities I think the message of "I am an atheist" gets equated with that of the amoral, because when you say to someone "I believe in god" they generally assume the same god they do. Yet, a Shiite Muslim will have an entirely different perspective on morality from an Orthodox Catholic from a Calvanist Protestant. Further, each of those people will have their own individual perspectives - and struggles - regarding the faith they have been raised in or chosen.

It's not different with atheists, though I think more atheists choose their perspectives of morality than are raised as such. There are humanists, Buddhists, those guys in Nippon I can never remember, Skeptics, Stoics and all sorts of philosophical ethics that can coexist with but do not require a religious belief. Each of those in turn is just as varied (and argumentative) as their religious counterparts, and each of them is just as distant from the word "Atheist" as a Christian is from the word "Theist."

It's easy to understand atheism - it just means a lack of belief in the supernatural, or spiritual if you prefer. What the morality of a particular atheist is will be just as deep, or shallow, as a particular theist.

I haven't read all of your story Ashland, but your H sounds like the kind of man who holds up atheism as an aegis against his own wicked little works. It's like someone finding god and feeling that they get to abdicate responsibility for all the horrible shit they've done just because they say sorry. For most people it doesn't work like that. The same goes with the various world views associated with atheism. You can't be a humanist and just fuck over anyone for a personal gain. It's a hypocrisy as much as violating certain suggestions about adultery this one guy supposedly brought down off a mountain.

A lot of people question their faith in times of crisis, a lot of people come to faith in times of crisis. I think real gains and losses tend to stick from quiet contemplation instead of trauma, though.

Sorry for rambling.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7488 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Hurt for 33
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Member # 25477
Default  Posted: 8:23 PM, April 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am beginning to wonder why I think I need to stay. The kids are grown. I did think that marriage was for life, but is there someone out there better for me? Someone who was not mentally and sexually abused by their parents. Someone who could love me, and not have to struggle to love me. I used to believe in a god but not for a long time now. After D-day I found out that my daughter and my granddaughter had been molested, thankfully by no one in the family this time. If god wants to be called Abba “father’ he needs to be at least as good as my dad was. My dad would have never let this happen to my kid or grandkid if he could have helped it, yet Abba did nothing! I agree with a lot that is said on this thread, and wonder if I am posting in the right place. WS was for 15 years Southern Baptist Pastor, met OP while her H was in school with mine.
I don't believe that believing makes it so. I don't see any evidence of a god, so there must not be one.


Me-52, BW
Him-57,WH
D-day 3AUG09
EA
Trying to R
Kids 2 grandchild 1
Married 33 yrs.

Posts: 11 | Registered: Sep 2009
catlover50
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Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 6:07 AM, April 13th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Hurtfor13))))

For me there is way more evidence for the lack of a loving God. Fortunately I have developed my own supports, because I feel we are on our own.

I hope you have the support you need at this time.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
SisterMilkshake
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Question  Posted: 10:33 AM, April 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have always thought of myself as a Christian. I was raised by a devoutly Catholic family. 10 years of Catholic school. A defining moment for me was in 8th grade. Now, mind you, I was a quiet shy girl, however, I have always been interested in debate. I have had strong points of view since I was a young child.

Anyway, once again, after the obligatory catechism lesson we had every day at school, I had some questions for Sister Julia. For every answer she gave me, it made me ask another question (because the answer never made sense) and she finally threw up her arms and said "Faith, Margaret Mary, faith!" I knew right then that could never be the answer for me. I need answers that make sense.

When I was 16 my Dad insisted the whole family go to "confession". This was in the old days when you went into a creepy box and talked to the priest. I told my Dad I didn't want to go. He forced me to go. Dear Dad was in the confession line behind me. I go in and say the ritual prayer and then I said nothing. Priest asked me about my "sins". I said, I am only here because my father forced me to come. I really don't understand why I have to confess my sins to a priest, why can't I talk directly to God, confess my sins (which He already knew, anyways) and ask for forgiveness?

Did. Not. Go. Over. Well. At. All. I got kicked out of confession. I have never heard of anyone getting kicked out of confession. Dad was confused when instead of going into the church to kneel and say my penance that I instead walked straight outside. I haven't been back to confession since. Dad never forced me again to confession.

But, I was a devout Catholic for much of my young life. Wanted to be a nun. And, not an ordinary nun, I wanted to be so good and pure that the Pope would proclaim me a Saint!

Anyhoo, I have gone through my life with believing in God. I have belonged to various non-denominational Christian churches. Ultimately, for the most part, I was disappointed in the church/people and leave.

My two oldest children have been to church and have had bible teaching, vacation Bible schools, youth groups, and choosing to be baptized. ( I had no choice, I was baptized as an infant.) My youngest child (10 year difference between middle and youngest child, oops!) has never had any church experience. I feel guilty as hell!

I read this recently.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
~ Epicurus
This really sums up where I am today. I can not believe in a God that allows such inhumanity . I can not believe in a God that one must pray to Him to heal a very sick child. And, then when the child dies, why didn't he answer your prayer? When the prayer is answered and the child healed I hear people say "God is good!" but what does that make Him when he doesn't heal the child?

Furthermore, why even bother to pray for healing, because according to most Christians "God has a plan for you and it is already written". He knows when you are going to die. He has your life all planned out. He has already decided whether the child will live or die, so why bother praying? And then there is the case where people ask for lots of prayers for someones healing. This one person has a whole church praying for their healing. The person is healed and it is due to all the prayers. Now, there is an equally good person who needs healing. This person doesn't have as many people praying for them because they just don't know that many people (or belong to a small church). This person dies. So, is it a popularity contest with God? Whoever has the most prayers wins!

I am struggling with this. I believe I am an agnostic. I neither believe for sure that there is no God, but I believe that there is the possibility of God. Just like aliens. I believe Jesus was a very good man. I believe in what Jesus specifically taught (supposedly) according to the Bible.

My biggest struggle is not having given my DS17 any religious training/education. Why? My other struggle is that I feel I am going to burn in Hell. How do I overcome this?

[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 10:52 AM, April 20th (Saturday)]


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9801 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:58 AM, April 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I neither believe for sure that there is no God, but I believe that there is the possibility of God. Just like aliens. I believe Jesus was a very good man. I believe in what Jesus specifically taught (supposedly) according to the Bible.

I think the problem people have with calling themselves atheists is that there's some false assumption that to be an atheist means you are 100% sure there's no Allah or Ganesha. When I say "There is no Ahura-Mazda" it isn't because I have irrefutable proof of that, it's because I haven't been presented with convincing evidence of that entity. If suddenly Ahriman appears and knocks my ass sideways then I'd be forced to re-evaluate my worldview given new evidence.

It's okay not to know something for sure, it's why you ask questions and investigate and learn and understand. We can't ever know everything, which is cool because that means there's always something new and interesting.

My biggest struggle is not having given my DS17 any religious training/education. Why? My other struggle is that I feel I am going to burn in Hell. How do I overcome this?

Religion is an easy framework of morality to present and teach. If it's what you grew up with then it's possibly the only framework of morality you know, and teaching right and wrong outside of that framework can feel like you aren't teaching right from wrong at all because of that.

As for worrying about burning in hell, it's similar - it's what you grew up with and what your brain auto-targets. There are entire organizations dedicated to walking away from that. People suffer from PTSD as bad as infidelity and combat just from trying to disengage from their religious beliefs and community. It's painful because while there can be many people from those communities who are supportive and caring, there are many many more who can be cruel, whether they intend to or not. Telling your 6 year old grand child that their great grandmother is hell bound for eternity because [insert reason here] is very damaging no matter how gently it might be delivered, and it burns that fear in deep.

I don't worry about that anymore, but it wasn't burned into me like it was my wife. I don't think it worries her any more, but I can see the PTSD triggers set her off when we're forced to be around certain religious communities or attitudes. My suggestion is to find a group specifically dealing with that struggle, one that you feel comfortable with. It helps to know there is a supportive community that is going through the same thing you are. Like SI.

Diagoras, who is called the atheist, being at Samothrace, one of his friends showed him several pictures of people who had endured very dangerous storms; "See," says he, "you who deny a providence, how many have been saved by their prayers to the Gods." "Ay," says Diagoras, "I see those who were saved, but where are those painted who were shipwrecked?"


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7488 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Itstoohard
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Member # 37629
Default  Posted: 1:21 PM, April 20th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sister-must be the catholic up bringing becuz I too have wondered those same things.
I too had a run in with the church. While I didn't go to catholic school I regularly went to catischism (spell) where we were tested for general church knowledge. I was a good student and took issues with a so called wrong answer. I answered NO to both 1.is a kiss a sin. And 2.is sex a sin. Number 1 I got wrong. They "assumed" at 14 we would not be having sex so that was correct becuz you would be married to have sex. But at 14 you might kiss a boy so it would be a sin! I questioned about kissing my parents and was told I was being a smart aleck. That was the beginning of the end for me and any religion.
Has anyone looked into Deism? What I have learned so far seems to make sense to me.
Still not sure what label to put on me.
I was concerned my kids would not have conscience w/o church but both ok. Tho one somehow became a member of what I believe to be a religious cult....the other has my beliefs and is an awesome human...very forgiving and cares about other humans.


BS 64
fWH 64
PA 22 yrs ago
Started as EA for 2 yrs then ONS CORRECTION Started as an EA for 8 years
Trustismyissue

Posts: 180 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: US
RockyMtn
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Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 7:13 AM, April 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sister - Bwhahahaha at your confession story! I also know those creepy confession boxes (this mama has 16 years of Catholic schooling, all the way through college). I love your gumption as a kiddo. Not that I'm surprised based on your posts

I am agnostic in the "hard" sense. You can't know if god exists, I can't know either. I have no problem with believers - I just don't think they can KNOW. Believing is legit. You don't have to prove something to believe it. And I don't 100% trust science either - I even think knowledge can be mysterious, so lack of proof of god doesn't mean s/he doesn't exist. The concept/existence of god cannot be proved or disproved.

I've caught myself muttering prayers before. Could be Catholic habit. But I love the serenity prayer and I don't care if the first word is "god" - sometimes I leave it out, sometimes I don't. I also believe that there is divine in this world, simply that it rests with humans. There is divine in me, divine in my community, divine in everyday experiences. I just don't link the divine to god. Maybe god, too? Who knows? No one.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
catlover50
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Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, April 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that it is important to let children search for themselves. I am openly atheist, from many years of study. I took the children to church when they were young but shared my search with them. They have studied religion on their own, even Buddhism. My son can explain the tenets of Hinduism and Scientology in detail. They both study philosophy. I am proud that they think for themselves.

Most people, IMHO, just accept the dogma that we grow up with. If you step back and evaluate it can seem foolish. It is accepted on tv that "our prayers go out to them" or that God saved this one or that one.

Would a loving God send me to hell because I truly studied and thought for myself? Would he reward someone who was mindless? Once I opened my mind it makes way more sense that there is no grand plan or any higher power. What a relief! It makes no sense any other way.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 10:03 PM, April 21st (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The concept/existence of god cannot be proved or disproved.

True, but when something enters into the category of unknowable and unprovable, it becomes irrelevant. Cows licking the world from a cosmic block of ice can't be proven or ultimately denied but beyond being an awesome story, Ginnungagap is at odds with observed and provable phenomena which edges the probability of that event into the negligible column.


"You have insulted my footwear."

Posts: 7488 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
RockyMtn
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Default  Posted: 8:33 PM, April 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

True, but when something enters into the category of unknowable and unprovable, it becomes irrelevant.

I don't know if I agree with that. Someone's belief is not irrelevant - to their lives. And to a lot of lives around them in many cases. But I hear what you're saying, not trying to split hairs.

But there is a lot of "proof" for supposedly knowable things that is, well, shady as shit. Or multiple theories on accepted phenomenon (i.e. why all non-avian dinosaurs are extinct). The existence of a asteroid that wiped them out has lots and lots of proof. But we don't know, based on that proof, that this asteroid existed. We believe the items set forth before us as proof. Others believe a different theory that does not include the existence of an asteroid, with a different set of very plausible arguments. Is this irrelevant? Because various theories are basically unproveable? To me, dinos ARE pretty irrelevant (my kids would disagree), as is the existence of god, but I'm sure there are reasons why dinos are relevant...and why many other unknowable things are relevant.

So, yea, I guess I'm one of those folks who just thinks a lot of things are unexplainable, regardless of accepted proof. And that's OK. Hard proof is not the "end all, be all" of existence.

I think that it is important to let children search for themselves. I am openly atheist, from many years of study. I took the children to church when they were young but shared my search with them. They have studied religion on their own, even Buddhism. My son can explain the tenets of Hinduism and Scientology in detail. They both study philosophy. I am proud that they think for themselves.

I agree. You should be proud of your kids. My WH (atheist) and I - whether we stay together or not - have a very similar approach. Its going to be damn hard for me, though, if they believe in a god/religion that professes judgment or close-mindedness. It would be hard for me to set aside any anti-gay agenda, for example, if that's what they choose to believe. But I'll try. I'll challenge them, but I'll try.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
catlover50
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Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 1:25 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, Rockymtn, since my daughter was president of her high school's gay and straight alliance and went to Maine to help their law get passed that seems unlikely!

I find that their quests have made them very tolerant. They rarely criticize or judge anyone (except me, of course!). I learn from them!



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1763 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
RockyMtn
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Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, Rockymtn, since my daughter was president of her high school's gay and straight alliance and went to Maine to help their law get passed that seems unlikely!

Kudos to her. That's awesome. I hope my kids grow up to be like your daughter. The thing I want most for them in this world is to be KIND.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 5:19 PM, April 26th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But there is a lot of "proof" for supposedly knowable things that is, well, shady as shit. Or multiple theories on accepted phenomenon (i.e. why all non-avian dinosaurs are extinct). The existence of a asteroid that wiped them out has lots and lots of proof. But we don't know, based on that proof, that this asteroid existed. We believe the items set forth before us as proof. Others believe a different theory that does not include the existence of an asteroid, with a different set of very plausible arguments. Is this irrelevant? Because various theories are basically unproveable? To me, dinos ARE pretty irrelevant (my kids would disagree), as is the existence of god, but I'm sure there are reasons why dinos are relevant...and why many other unknowable things are relevant.

So, yea, I guess I'm one of those folks who just thinks a lot of things are unexplainable, regardless of accepted proof. And that's OK. Hard proof is not the "end all, be all" of existence.

Well, hrm. I don't want to split hairs either but proof and evidence are not the same thing.

Evidence based beliefs such as the asteroid are Best In Category beliefs that can always be replaced by beliefs with stronger supporting evidence. That the dinosaurs of the K-T event were rendered extinct due to an asteroid and the subsequent worldwide disasters that followed - literally fire raining down from the sky on the other side of the planet as debris from the asteroid was thrown out of the atmosphere and crashed in again, for example - has been borne out through a very large body of evidence ranging from simulations to findings like the Chicxulub Crater and high concentrations of iridium. That K-T event isn't even the worst extinction level event - the Permian event killed off 97% of all marine life and they believe that was due to flood basalts. Imagine half a million years of a lava covered planet with all the oxygen sucked out of the ocean. That's fucking scary. It makes an asteroid with an eruption cone that extends about 20 miles into the atmosphere. I mean thats in fucking space. It's scary.

So it isn't to say that flood basalts are irrelevant but that they are not as likely as an asteroid impact for the KT event, though they are the likely candidate for the really scary Great Dying.

That's not where I was going with irrelevant, though. If it existed, it's potentially knowable. Even if somehow in the future we develop FTL travel, we should be able to escape our causality envelope and view our own distant past as light escapes the planet near the edge of the universe at a threshold of like 3 bya. So it is potentially *knowable* in that sense, though not likely - yet the likelihood does not make it impossible.

So for a thing to be truly unknowable means for it to have no influence over reality - at which point it is no longer relevant to our existence in this reality. It may have an unknowable influence, but if we cannot know it then we cannot accommodate for it in any way, and if that is the case then wild guesses are as good as cheese on thursday.

For some folks that's fine, sure. I consider it irrelevant because if it has no tangible, knowable influence then it effectively does not exist. If a leprechaun appears and shouts SURPRISE and pees on my shoes then I'll be forced to reassess my views on leprechauns, but until then I'll stick to being scared of tooth faeries. because i'm a wimp and I hide my face in g_r's shoulder when scary parts of a movie come on.

If potential is simply what might be, and what might be is simply the future of the now, and the now is what exists in the moment, then what exists in the moment is the logical precedent for potential - betting against that is fine, but the longer the odds against the evidence the longer the odds against its existence.

eta:

Also, dinosaurs are relevant not just because of things like oil and evolution but they're FUCKING AWESOME!

How could that NOT be relevant to EVERYTHING?

[This message edited by StillGoing at 5:25 PM, April 26th (Friday)]


"You have insulted my footwear."

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