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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Spouses/Partners Of Sex Addicts
TeatimeAlice
♀ Member
Member # 17414
Default  Posted: 10:43 AM, December 18th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay...I'm going to be transparent....I was raped as a teen....there was some SA when I was much younger around 3 or 4...and many incidents that tainted me through the years....friend's father making pass at me family friend patting my bottom on the church steps when I was a teen Aunt offering her bil to "pop my cherry" and be gentle with me and get it over with when I was a young teen etc...etc...etc...

I don't trust easily....and when I do trust I have chosen the WRONG people like my OW...and my husband...

Something that I am dealing with in a mighty way---nightmares......years ago after the rape I had nightmares about the rape...I never told anyone and it took a long time for them to go away completely....I STUFFED it....

Fast forward to now.....nightmares are back because this A hurts 100 million times worse than getting raped....how do I know...I lived through that and don't feel like I'm going to live through this...

My rapist is out of my life...my only regret is that by keeping silent he probably has done that to others....

But this A has been an emotional rape by TWO people who were supposed to love me...who wouldn't want to hurt me......and yet they hurt me worse than anything else I've ever gone through!!!!!!!!

I now have nightmares and in them the rape has happened (although I'm not actually reliving that part)...I know it has happened and then it is the OW who picks me up off the ground.......tells me "not to act like a martyr"......I KNOW I've been raped by HER!!!!!!! I wake up and trigger and I'm sad and have trouble functioning.

I am on anti-depressants now...and that was the right choice...something I thought I'd never do....they have helped. I am in pain as are all of us who live in this fallen world.

Do any of the rest of you struggle with nightmares??? If so how do you deal with them??? I just want the pain to all go away!!!!!! I am so tired of this struggle!!!!!!


Divorce will be final around the time we should be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. Pray please I was a faithful loving wife and now my heart is forever crushed because my husband chose his sexual addictions over repairing our marriage. I

Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: in Wonderland....wondering how/why this happened!
TeatimeAlice
♀ Member
Member # 17414
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, December 18th (Tuesday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am still learning this board...I meant to put the above post in Sexual Abuse "I can relate" category....sorry...


Divorce will be final around the time we should be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. Pray please I was a faithful loving wife and now my heart is forever crushed because my husband chose his sexual addictions over repairing our marriage. I

Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: in Wonderland....wondering how/why this happened!
Jim_and_I
♀ New Member
Member # 15390
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, December 22nd (Saturday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can anyone please tell me when they resumed "normal" sex with their WS? Mine is moving back into our bedroom because my parents are coming for Christmas (for 2 weeks! ; this is after he's spent 10 months in the spare bedroom. A friend says it's my marital duty but our R isn't exactly progressing as I'd like.

He's very angry and resentful still about the lack of sex in our marriage and I'm WAY pissed off about his cavorting with hookers and having an LTA with a woman who lives 1/2 mi away!!! (And texted/called him as recently as last week!).

What would anyone else do????


that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger....at least that's the theory!!!

D-Day 1: Nov 2004
D-Day 2: Feb 10, 2007
D-Day3: Oct. 29, 2007
how stupid AM i?
Kids: 2 girls 9 and 12
Married 18 yrs.


Posts: 20 | Registered: Jul 2007
Whoknew?
♀ Member
Member # 9270
Default  Posted: 3:34 PM, December 22nd (Saturday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jim_and_I, wish I had a good answer for you. My WH and I had a long period of wild bonding and it was great. After that, I've moved out of our bedroom several times. A few weeks ago we stayed with relatives and shared a bed...and sex. Now we're home and I'm back in "my" room. I've found that when we're sharing a room, I start stressing out over what he's doing on the computer, what he's doing when he's not home, etc. After nearly four years of that I'm tired of it.

I hope someone else will have some real advice. Does your family know what's going on? Our families don't so we keep up the charade. Good luck to you!


Posts: 85 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: Florida
Mama2girls
♀ Member
Member # 16119
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, December 22nd (Saturday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

JimandI,

Not sure what advice to give.

I can tell you that we resumed a very active sex life immediately. I felt very strongly about "reclaiming" what should have been mine and having this pleasure and intimacy to help strengthen our relationship.
Maybe we're in the "wild bonding" that Whoknew mentioned.

I think keeping each other at a distance will not help R.

But, your situation may be very different. Has he figured out why he is using sex to self-medicate?
Is he being transparent? Is he dedicated to you or still active in his addiction?

Take care and don't do anything that doesn't feel good to you.


Me BS 37
Him WH 40

Married 8 years, together 12 years
2 young daughters
FWH in IC for SA
R


Posts: 89 | Registered: Sep 2007
7yrsbetrayed
♀ Member
Member # 10198
Default  Posted: 1:46 AM, December 23rd (Sunday), 2007View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jim_and_I,
Is your SA in recovery for his addiction? If so, you both should have agreed to no sex until he's got some sobriety under his belt. My FWH's counselor was very clear about it.

If he is not in treatment/recovery I think it's in your best interest not to have sex with him, especially if you don't want to. That is not healthy. It is NOT your duty.

If he is not seeking treatment for his SA, what are you doing for yourself? It is my personal opinion that no one should stay with a SA who is not in recovery, but if you do you definitely need therapy for co-dependency. You need to take care of yourself.


Me(44)
Him(46) arthurdent (rSA)
Married 12 yrs, together 15
Renewed Vows 12/19/08
One DD(8)
You can avoid reality but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.~Ayn Rand

Posts: 2167 | Registered: Mar 2006 | From: Colorado
kiwi51
♀ Member
Member # 17549
Default  Posted: 7:53 PM, January 3rd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What happens to a long term high level SA who doesn't get into recovery? My separated H is such .. and has dragged out therapy over one year with little willingness.



Posts: 75 | Registered: Dec 2007
Mama2girls
♀ Member
Member # 16119
Default  Posted: 4:41 PM, January 4th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kiwi51

Sorry I don't really know.

I would guess that he won't change until his behavior has been so destructive to his life that there is nothing left.

Perhaps, when he continues to escalate, he will get into legal trouble.

Sometimes, having a really good IC makes all the difference in the world. My WH spent months lying to our MC (after what I thought was 1 affair, but in reality was SA). Now that he has a really good IC, he is very strongly on the road to recovery.

Good luck and protect yourself.


Me BS 37
Him WH 40

Married 8 years, together 12 years
2 young daughters
FWH in IC for SA
R


Posts: 89 | Registered: Sep 2007
kiwi51
♀ Member
Member # 17549
Default  Posted: 5:57 PM, January 4th (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Mama

Actually he does have an expert IC but the slowness of the process is frustrating. He also has Dissociative Disorder which was only diagnosed a year ago and has had to have that treated before the SA therapy could be introduced. He'd been counseled in 1995 and in 1998 for SA but didn't follow through back then - hence it all escalated over the ensuing 10 years til I blew up and threw him out. He's a 'slippery' one!



Posts: 75 | Registered: Dec 2007
Eternaloptimist
♀ Member
Member # 15029
Default  Posted: 7:19 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How many of you are in a 12-step group for spouses? I've finally tracked one down in my city -- though it was on "hiatus" and will start up again later this month. I'm hopeful that it'll finally give me some sense of promise that I can get past this. Have any of you found it really helpful? Any advice in the meantime? I'm having a really hard time lately believing that I can get past an entire marriage's worth of lies... I'm still with my WH, he'd in counselling, doing everything he should be. But I keep falling back into this numbness -- this sense that none of it matters because it'll never change the fact that I'm with someone who is capable of lying to me from start to finish.


Me: BS
Him: WS, SA
Married: 12 years
Three kids: 9-year-old D, 7-year-old S, 5-year-old D
D-Day #1: December 11, 2006 (LTA)
D-Day #2: June 17, 2007 (found out about SA)

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Toronto
ever_after?
New Member
Member # 17095
Default  Posted: 10:25 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm having a really hard time lately believing that I can get past an entire marriage's worth of lies... I'm still with my WH, he'd in counselling, doing everything he should be. But I keep falling back into this numbness -- this sense that none of it matters because it'll never change the fact that I'm with someone who is capable of lying to me from start to finish.


Exactly exactly exactly how I feel


Me: BS 32
Him: SA 34
2 beautiful kiddies: boy & girl
Married: 8 yrs
My whole world fell apart: 3rd June '07.

Posts: 6 | Registered: Nov 2007
Lola123
♀ Member
Member # 12135
Default  Posted: 10:29 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi EternalOptimist.
I am from the GTA as well!

I have attended an S-Anon meeting a couple of times and found it very helpful. I've also downloaded some material from Dr Doug Weiss website www.sexaddict.com(videos) and have a couple of his books that are geared specifically to partners of SA.

Very soon, my H and I will be flying down to Dr Weiss counselling centre in the US for what they call a Couples Intensive. Its basically 3 days of joint and individual therapy specifically pertaining to SA. I'm really looking forward to it (is that weird or what?)

I've also read Codependent No More twice and am about to start for the third time. Through the S Anon, the books and my own experience, I can tell you that I am emotionally unhealthy. I had a bit of baggage entering this relationship but now I've got the entire set of matching Samsonite.

I am recognizing the patterns that I contribute to in our conversations etc. That's the thing you will find with S-Anon or COSA. The focus will be on you, your choices, your health etc. Of course, you will get lots of validation for your feelings too. Its great to have face to face contact with other women who are experiencing similar problems. I find these meetings empowering and hopeful.

As for coping in the meantime, I would have to say that you need to try and focus on yourself. Try to find things that meet your needs and bring you good feelings.

Have you heard of recoverynation.com? They have a partner's workshop there that is great! It also puts the focus on us as individuals and helps us sort out our own values, action plans, determine how we've been affected, and also gain understanding about addictions (which helps in our relationships with the SA.) Its free and I think its helped me very much.

I too have been lied to by my H from start to finish. I can totally relate to your feelings here. I found out three months ago that he has been acting out with women/prostitutes while on business trips to the far East. This has been going on for years! Initially it was quite earth shattering. But because my d-days have come in dribs and drabs and with increasing intensity, I was somewhat intellectually prepared (since I knew about sex addiction) to receive this god-awful news.

I am trying to make it through day by day. Some days (like today) are more difficult. I was triggered at church of all places and it hasn't been a good day for me since then.

In terms of the question 'what to do?', I have given myself permission to wait before making any life-altering decisions.

I hope this helps and if you ever want to chat with a fellow Canadian in a similar boat, feel free to PM me anytime.

Hugs!


Posts: 63 | Registered: Sep 2006 | From: Canada
canwesurvive
New Member
Member # 17655
Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, January 6th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm new here, and I'm happy that there is a section for spouses of SAs. I have had a really long road so far, and there are so many moments where I'm not sure if I'm going to be happy staying in my marriage or not. I would not wish this upon my worst enemy in life.

1. How long has your WS been a sex addict, have you known, & what are they doing to deal with that (SA, etc)?

My husband has been a sex addict since college. Probably before college, but he started acting out compulsively during college. I had my first discover on August 25, 2004. And a second discovery with more information coming out on July 1, 2007. Since the second discovery he has started going to 3-4 SA meetings a week, as well as seeing an individual therapist who specializes is sexual addiction.

2. How does your SA act out & how much verifying do you do?

Well... my husband is a "Level 3" if you have read any Carnes materials. His main form of acting out has been - voyerism. Yes, looking into windows. He also has compulsively masturbated and has been addicted to internet porn as well. As far as his voyerism, he looked at men as well as women. Mostly men actually because it was easier to "catch them" doing something sexual. Lovely, huh? He does not leave the house after dark without telling me exactly where he is going. Software has been installed on all of our computers (by his choice) so that he cannot look at porn. I dont check on him. This is his problem to solve.

3. Has the SA had relapses / slips?

As far as the voyerism - I dont think so. Porn and masturbation, yes.

4. Do you have kids?

Two small children - 1 1/2 and 3.

5. Brief description of what brought you to SI?

I go to a therapist myself once a week, and I'm being treated for PSTD with EMDR and other treatments. I also go to a S-Anon meeting one evening a week (for spouses). I have just been in a down spot lately and was looking for support.


6. What would you say are the biggest barriers to reconciliation / recovery?

The fact that what he has done has been so intrusive and illegal. He has been arrested for his activities (how I came about the first discovery). One of my biggest barriers to my own recovery has been my anger. I feel that I have been a very unhappy person through all of this. There are times that I question why I'm staying with this person. If you saw us, you would NEVER think that this would be our situation. He is an attractive, college educated, successful guy. We have two small amazing children. I own a small successful business as well. We dont look like the type of people that would have these kinds of issues.


7. Would you say you had a good relationship prior to the cheating & what made it that way?
Well, I had NO idea about ANY of this prior to a few months before our wedding. We moved in together, and we would have a "fight" (staged I'm sure) and he would leave and stay out all night. Red light, but the wedding was set and I ignored it I guess. He was arrested in August '05 when our son was just 11 months old. So this has been in our marriage since the beginning. I guess I could sense his distance from the beginning. He has medicated himself with the porn and waiting for the next "hit" (looking into a window). I know more about SA at this point than I ever wanted to know. I feel so damaged and hurt over all of this.

8. Current status? Married. I didnt leave him after the first discovery. I did leave him this past July - for 4 days. With our two children. I went back, with very strict conditions. I do love him, I do feel sorry for him. He is getting the help that he needs. I do hope that it is enough to free him of this sickness. As for me, I am trying to take care of myself but I feel unhappy a lot of the time.

Thanks for listening.
-Canwesurvive


Posts: 1 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: california
Eternaloptimist
♀ Member
Member # 15029
Default  Posted: 9:31 AM, January 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Lola and CWS,
I too feel unhappy (or numb -- same thing, I think) much of the time. People have always commented about my "passion" for life. But since all this, I feel like that's lost. Which makes me feel like I've lost myself.
My husband's SA counsellor insists that people can and do get past this -- that they can create a marriage that's fulfilling and intimate and better than before (not much of a stretch, in my opinion!!). So I keep hanging in there. And I too love my husband, though I've lost that "in love" feeling. I used to feel so lucky. Now I feel like I'm settling...


Me: BS
Him: WS, SA
Married: 12 years
Three kids: 9-year-old D, 7-year-old S, 5-year-old D
D-Day #1: December 11, 2006 (LTA)
D-Day #2: June 17, 2007 (found out about SA)

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Toronto
Bamboozled1
♀ Member
Member # 5764
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, January 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

EternalOptimist,

I've been in SAnon for two years. It has saved my life (truly) and restored what sanity I had left. The program is all about YOU, which has been great for me. For too long, my life had been focused on my SA's problems. I've learned to keep the focus on myself, and to take care of myself.

I've learned that I did nothing to cause this, can't cure it, can't control it. I can only work on my own part in this insanity. I've learned about detaching with love, and having my own boundaries.

If you're not used to a 12 step format, it will take some time to get used to it. Go to at least 6 mtgs before you decide whether or not it's for you. Stay after the mtg and talk to people. Most mtgs will have someone call the newcomers. When they call, talk to them about what you're dealing with--the people in the mtg really want to help, and are willing to share their experience, strength and hope with you. Everyone in those rooms has gone thru the pain that you're experiencing, and many will tell you that they're grateful for what they've gone thru this (and I know how crazy that probably sounds to you at this point).

Go with an open mind and a willingness to learn new things about yourself, and give the program some time.


Posts: 1851 | Registered: Nov 2004
TeatimeAlice
♀ Member
Member # 17414
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, January 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

material from Dr Doug Weiss website www.sexaddict.com

We recently ordered some of his books...working through the "Partners" books...hoping my husband works through his...hoping we can work through the "Intimacy" exercises together...

question??? Is there a way to "12 step" online somehow??? I don't believe I can get away anymore...I am already periodically attending BAN (beyond affairs network--Peggy Vaughn author of "Monogamy Myth" started them, Anne Bercht author of "My husband's affair" has taken over leadership) meetings when I can and the girls there have been a LIFELINE for me, more support than I could imagine...but I know I need to work through the 12 steps...could we possibly work through the exercises maybe even here together???

Just a thought???


Divorce will be final around the time we should be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. Pray please I was a faithful loving wife and now my heart is forever crushed because my husband chose his sexual addictions over repairing our marriage. I

Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: in Wonderland....wondering how/why this happened!
Eternaloptimist
♀ Member
Member # 15029
Default  Posted: 10:16 AM, January 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey Teatime,

A friend tried to hook me up with some online SA groups -- I had to "apply"...then never heard back. I'm trying not to take it personally
I am familiar with 12-step groups. My mom was an alcoholic who credits AA with saving her life. She was sober 25 years when she passed away this past summer (another painful event this past year...).
However, feel free to PM me -- perhaps we can work through this together. And let's keep this thread active. I find "voices" who've been there tend to keep me from falling into the abyss.


Me: BS
Him: WS, SA
Married: 12 years
Three kids: 9-year-old D, 7-year-old S, 5-year-old D
D-Day #1: December 11, 2006 (LTA)
D-Day #2: June 17, 2007 (found out about SA)

Posts: 656 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Toronto
TeatimeAlice
♀ Member
Member # 17414
Default  Posted: 10:36 AM, January 7th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

hey Eternaloptimist, I would love to work through it with you...I will be pm'ing you...I too need the voices here...are we hearing voices now...I am worried....

I just worked on the questions...I’ve been meaning to answer these questions for awhile…here goes…

1. How long has your WS been a sex addict, have you known, & what are they doing to deal with that (SA, etc)?
My husband was first introduced to porn in the second grade…he claims to have struggled with problems in this area for as long as he can remember. Right now he claims to be “sober” of porn and the big “M”…I only have his word, and he doesn’t understand why that isn’t enough…could it be all the lies of the past???

2. How does your SA act out & how much verifying do you do?
Porn, Masterbation, ONS, affair with a “friend” of mine…he struggles with SSA (same sex attraction) but the affair he had was with a woman.

3. Has the SA had relapses / slips?
He claims to be porn free since he lost his job April ‘06 and M free for a year.

4. Do you have kids? yes

5. Brief description of what brought you to SI?
Husband’s A

6. What would you say are the biggest barriers to reconciliation / recovery?
No trust…A was a “deal breaker” for me…his lies all through the years, he is a master of deception…I never knew so many things, I thought he was being honest with me….sexual abuse baggage of my own…our intimacy is just all screwed up!!!!

7. Would you say you had a good relationship prior to the cheating & what made it that way?
I love him, he loves me…I always considered him my best friend, he‘s smart, witty, fun to be with except when he‘s in a funk…guess that is why it hurts so bad to find out he considered one of my friends his best friend and thought he could trust her more than me…that her sex was worth risking everything…I don’t feel cherished as a wife…hard to explain…I have no self-esteem left…I have issues, he has issues, we have issues…I think I tried to “Pollyanna” my way through the problems…guess I thought if *I* were a better wife/lover *he* wouldn’t have those problems…internalized everything to being there must be something wrong with *me*. I was doing everything I could at the time of the A to be the best wife I could be…talk about co-dependent…my middle name…he just ripped out my heart and trampled it in the dirt and left me bleeding…he doesn’t even see how hard I was trying to work on me…I really was trying to follow God and be a godly woman….I know I need to continue to give my best to God, but sadly I don’t feel the motivation to give my best to my spouse anymore…2X4’s anyone…I am having a hard time working on things…our whole marriage prior to the A was a LIE and I believed it…I feel so STUPID…so I’m having a hard time answering this question.

8. Current status?
Married


Divorce will be final around the time we should be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. Pray please I was a faithful loving wife and now my heart is forever crushed because my husband chose his sexual addictions over repairing our marriage. I

Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: in Wonderland....wondering how/why this happened!
TeatimeAlice
♀ Member
Member # 17414
Default  Posted: 7:38 AM, January 10th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

After I answered the questions I got to thinking...maybe my husband's description of himself might be the best discription of his SA...this is from his profile here.
Sexual addict from very early age...saw first porn in 2nd grade. Compulsive masturbation and same-sex attraction thru teen years into adulthood. Married BS in 1988. Continued compulsive masturbation and neglecting her sexual needs. Had a ONS in graduate school with a younger man (I was 29). Partial healing from that, but eventually went back to my old habits. Ended up having a sexual affair w/wife's friend of 30+ years; I worked with the OW in the same school district. We used school internet to send explicit messages; I was also looking at porn nearly all day long. We were eventually monitored and caught (the OW was also messaging/emailing other men at the same time) and both fired. That was April 19, 2006. Finally told BS all details on Dec 19, 2006. No contact w/OW since then, although my BS has met with her and gotten threatening phone calls from her.

I am very broken. He has told me he's not sure he loves me, he's not sexually attracted to me (funny before we were married he was...magically we got married and even our wedding night and our whole first year of marriage was messed up sexually...no sex on our wedding night...hardly any sex the first year of our marriage)...actually he's held out our whole marriage...sex is pretty much ALWAYS on his terms or nothing...I love this man...he says I'm his best friend and if we were to divorce who would he talk to because I'm his best friend... he considers me a friend...it felt like he was asking me to stay in a marriage where I'm his maid/mother of his children and he'll have "charity sex" with me when he feels like it. What do I do??? The man has put me down and beat (emotionally) all of the self-esteem I had left out of me. I feel like he is trying to manipulate me into SILENCE on the affair. He hates emotional intimacy and is passive-aggressive. I feel like I am dying!!!!! I survive and keep going only for our children, but even in that area I am crippled!!! I was a good wife, at least trying my hardest--TRULY TRYING MY HARDEST, when he chose to have intimacy and pursue and woo and be attracted and have sex with my friend...he had convinced me, beat my self esteem so down within me, that I didn't even think he was CAPABLE of intimacy and pusuing/wooing behavior ...guess he is with ANYTHING else, but not with me. I am so hurt I can't even think of having sex with him NOW...
What do I do? I need help!!! I was NEVER a frigid wife. I was open and loving. He says it's not me yeah right so that makes this all better the whole last 20 years of my life have been a LIE!!!! I feel trapped...my best years were given to a man who didn't value or respect me. I gave him babies. I am disposable like an old rag!!!!!!!!!! Help me, I am hurting so very much!!!! The other night ripped through my heart like another d-day


Divorce will be final around the time we should be celebrating our 25th wedding anniversary. Pray please I was a faithful loving wife and now my heart is forever crushed because my husband chose his sexual addictions over repairing our marriage. I

Posts: 348 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: in Wonderland....wondering how/why this happened!
newdaysahead
♀ Member
Member # 10467
Default  Posted: 8:08 AM, January 10th (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Alice

There is an online COSA group that you can subscribe to. It took about a week for me to hear back and get access to the group. If you do a search through Yahoo Groups for COSA 12 step you will find it.


Me BS 39
Him WS 40, SLA,LTA and many other PAs and EAs
M 20 years, now separated



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