If he doesn't need a plan - how does he think he's going to stay sober? He may not crave alcohol but how is he going to change the pattern of "needing a drink when he comes home and finds the ouse in disarray"? I think that's denial - but it's MY opinion only.
He has options for his living arrangements, don't let someone else's feelings dictate what YOU feel is right for YOUR living arrangements.
The financial issues are always there with an alcoholic. If it's not the money they spend on booze it's something else - in my H's case it was a motorcycle, a truck...... and anything else he thought might fill the hole in his life. For your H it's having to pay for a hotel.
Can you somehow separate your money? Can you make sure you have enough for your needs and he gets what's left over? YOU didn't cause this problem and you shouldn't have to suffer any more financial burden than you are already carrying.
He may never "get it". But YOU can. You are responsible ONLY to yourself and your children. He's created the mess - not you.
Attend your meetings, find strength from the other AL Anon members who've lived the same, look after yourself and your children. Let hime find his own way - IF he chooses to.
Sending you peace and love.
Unfortunately, the financial situation is 99% his, and not just the spending side. I have been a SAHM for the past 8 1/2 years. I just re-entered the work force a year ago, but a minimal part-time during the school day. It rakes in a whopping $4k-$6k/year. Not enough to live on. He is in the entitlement mindset that he "made the money, he can spend it anyway he sees fit." He has backed off of that a little, but ...
Had an incredibly rough day today. All the strength I showed in other posts has gone to hell in a hand basket today. I have allowed him to get to me once again. I was doing so well, too.
I wish he would just get it. He just doesn't get the depth to which he has absolutely destroyed my being; the depths to which he has shredded my heart and soul.
I wanted to reconcile and (knowing there would be LOTS of work) not get back the marriage we had, but surpass that. Guess I was asking too much just to get a little remorse/guilt/empathy shown to me. I sure have seen a lot for the OW, but none for me. It's really depressing when you want to work with a life partner and they just kick you in the teeth over and over again. It really sucks. I really wish there were some sort of something that would help him get it. He used to be so compassionate and loving and it's all gone. Nothing but blaming and guilt trips and "whoa is me" from him. He's now complaining about how selfish I am. Heck yeah I am! Gotta re-institute the "ME" attitude and heal myself as I have been learning in the treatment program.
Thanks for listening!
Im am SO thankful to IC and Al-Anon...when I stopped worrying about him,decided to be happy anyway...and really worked the program...he took that step.
There's hope out there folks,
its been a hellacious two years,but things are looking up...
Two young adult kids 27 and 22
Current status:31 years...sigh.
Confused....it sounds like you have taken all the right steps. You kicked him out of the house (consequences) and you took care of your own needs by going to ALANON. You protected yourself and your children by going to the police for a protective order....
His parents sound like they know how troubled he is and they want to wash their hands of him and send him back to you ASAP!
Don't do it. Don't reconcile too quickly. He needs to feel the full brunt of his actions.... he needs to see consequences....he needs to hit bottom if there is any chance of him getting out of the 'fog' with the OW.
It has only been a week or so since he went NC with the OW.It has only been a few months of sobriety right...and he really fell off the wagon.... very heavy drugs....
so, he still has a lot of work that he has to do before he is ready to come home.
I know the money issue is huge but... in the long run... spending extra money for him to live apart from you will be worth it if he really gets his act together.
Allowing him to move back sooner than he should may contribute to a false reconciliation... he may not be 100% ready to go NC with the OW or.... he could fall off the wagon again if he does not continue to go to regular meetings and IC etc.
He has some serious addiction issues that need to be addressed. And, of course there is the affair...
My husband was very motivated to do anything and everything to reconcile when we were separated.... after 6 months he moved back home.
Don't get me wrong...he continues to work his program...he goes to AA regularly and has been sober for over 3 yrs.... but, he did assume that now that he was home ...well...that meant he didn't have to talk about the affair anymore... we didn't need to continue going to MC.
This has caused me some grief over the past 2 and 1/2 yrs as I am still not 100% over the LTA....and I think we could benefit from more discussions and /or MC.
But, etting him move home... I lost a bargaining chip.
Keep that in mind.
You're lucky to have found a support group for betrayed spouses. Not too many of those out there.
Hopefully, you will get some good advice there as well.
Some books that I liked: Love Must be Tough by James Dobson, Marriage On the Rocks by Woititz (about alcoholic marriages), and any book by Melody Beattie on co-dependency.....
are you and ACOA (adult child of an alcoholic)?
I am... many of us are....
There are some good books on that also (if it applies to you)..because many of our reactions to problems in our marriages are due to our childhood experiences in an alcoholic household.
A couple of things have occurred to me.
1. - I got to experience the worst of him - the A, the trashing of my home, the overspending, the binges. Now that he's sober his new AA friends and the people he went throught treatment with are experiencing the best of him. I get the guy who sleeps alot, is unmotivated to do much around the house. They get the guy who is upbeat, laughing and smiling, the first guy to clean up the meeting room, put away chairs etc. WTF???
2. - He tells me that we haven't grown in the last year since DDay and that he refuses to live in the past anymore. How can you grow when you were dealing with a guy who drank daily to take the edge off and admits that he wasn't able to fully participate in MC because of his drinking?
3. - He's getting therapy for PTSD - learning to deal with traumatic events from HIS past. Wasn't his A traumatic for me? He's willing to go into the past to deal with his own issues but thinks that I should move forward and stop dwelling in the past about his A.
4. - He's often condescending towards me - almost arrogant. "You work your program and I'll work mine" like he's suddenly become the expert. Maybe he doesn't intend to come across like this - I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt - but from where I'm sitting it sure feels like condescension and arrogance. Like somehow he's got all the answers and I just don't quite measure up.
I'm learning about the 3 stages of recover - early, mid and long term. The addictions counselor who is running the family group says it can take several years before for them to move from early to mid term - where they finally start acknowledging the damage they've done and start to make amends for it.
All I can say is "God grant me the serenity..........
He might be reminded that while he is working his program and you appreciate the changes he is making that there are 12 steps to work through. Next time his condesending tone becomes more than you can handle tell him you will be very happy when he works his program long enough to get to Step 8.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
There are 12 steps for a reasn and he has not reached this point yet. And just to let you know, most AA meetings don't let you bullshit your way past a step, laughing and sharing or not.
So, exh went to his first IC appointment on Friday. He loved the therapist! Very unusual for exh...he usually finds something wrong with each. Anyway, he shared some of the things they talked about. Exh said he shared he knows he has a drinking problem and what happens to him when he does...when he drinks he cheats. Bottom line. When he is sober the thought does not cross his mind. With the help of this IC and AA he is now 1 week sober! Big for exh.
So last night we were here and having a great night. I could tell exh was struggling and I helped him through the best I could. I was triggering bad simply because it was the weekend and usually weekends is when exh does his stupid behavior. I was anxious all day when he wasn't here...what is he doing? is he slipping? is he thinking? UGH..my mind was going crazy. He kept in touch all day and when he got here he knew I was having a hard time. We ended up talking about what I was feeling and for the FIRST time he said he understood and will help me through that. He created it. He said the IC told him that he had to do whatever it took to reassure me. IF he does slip and have a beer then he needs to be with me and not leave. He needs to let me talk to him about my fears. I am hoping he doesn't relapse but there is always that chance, especially in the beginning. He also said he wanted his family back and wanted to RECONCILE! I have never heard the R word from his mouth. Yeah, a "lets see what happens" here and there but never a full fledged RECONCILE.
Wow...All the things I have been trying to communicate to exh was finally heard by his IC.
I hope this is a turning point for your WS. I have found that until there is sobriety, not just periods of not drinking I can't trust a thing my WW would say. She is in a relationship with someone she met in detox and used AA meetings to foster their relationship and as a cover for their sexual misconduct.
Most people who have an alcoholic who is in true recovery and R say it takes a year of actively working the program and not drinking to make the changes in their behavior and brain to begin to believe a WS.
My WW has relapsed about 8 or 9 times since June 09. She met the POS in late Aug. They had a relapse together in a hotel room that lasted 3 days in early Oct. That's when I had my Dday.
Every day an alcoholic is dry is one step closer, but if they are not working the AA program and not committed to changing their life all you have is a dry drunk. I'm glad your WS has a week, mine can usually make it 30, to up to 45 days at most before she slips back into a relapse.
I pray that your WS is indeed committed to first sobriety, and the the marriage. Without true sobriety, I feel there is little hope for the changes any of us need to R.
You are in my thoughts and prayers. Take care of yourself and look into Al-Anon to start your healing from the havoc that alcoholism has caused in your life.
It sounds like you are expecting rational thoughts from an irrational brain. You need to detach from the alcoholic. Only they can heal themselves. You need to focus on you, the only person you have any control over. You need to work on you and your healing. IF he is working the program then he will at the point he is ready make "amends" to those he has harmed. But, just as you have said he may only be dry. A non-drinking alcoholic who has not made the changes in their life or behavior. A selfish, self centered person.
I struggle just as you do. It is easier for me to say what needs to be done to you than to do it myself. My WW just came off her last relapse 3 weeks ago. She will relapse again as she has not made the changes needed. My heart yearns for her just to admit what she has done is wrong, but it is not going to happen. She can't. To be be remorseful would mean accepting responsibility for what she has done. A person not in active recovery is unable to do this. The relapses, the affair all are things that are not her fault in her mind. They can't be. If she were to accept responsibility then it means she has to look within for the problem, not out at me, her job, the weather, etc.
Your WS if not in active recovery won't make amends, because he won't truly get to that step. He hasn't truly made it to step 1.
What you need to focus on is you. Work on your healing. He may or may not and you have no control of that. Again, deal with what you have control of; you.
Take care of yourself.
Yesterday I went and saw the IC that is treating exh for his childhood issues/alcoholism as well as our relationship issues. I can see exh has made great strides in his attitude and sincerity with being committed to us and wanting to quit the drinking.
I laid it all out to the IC. I filled in alot of blanks for him with regard to exh's behavior while drinking. Something chemically happens to exh and he loses some memory when he drinks and its not only when he drinks alot. Very scary.
IC feels exh really loves me, wants his family back, and is very sincere....BUT the future of us will depend on if he can maintain sobriety! I knew that deep down but its really scary to think you won't have a future if he can't maintain being sober.
Exh is doing what he can to stay sober. He knows he has lost so much already and will continue to lose if he doesn't quit.
IC told me that if exh slips and does have a few I have 2 choices: 1. To tell exh he cannot drink around me or baby and send him packing home. Scary part about that is he will do heaven knows what because he has no boundaries when drinking. 2. Tell exh if he chooses to drink again we will be done completely until he is sober again.
I really have to go with number 2. IC agreed. If I don't exh will not have any consequences to his drinking. He can play family man when he wants and then be drinking when he wants.
Next week we go together and exh will continue going alone as well. I love IC..I wish I could afford to go all the time!
First off, any and everything is possible from recovery to dying from this disease. As much as our loved ones want us to seek help the only way it is possible is if/when we have decided enough is enough. Even then itís still no guarantee that we can/will stay sober. A big misconception that people have is they see drinking as a choice and all we have to do is say I WONíT DRNK ANYMORE. This way of thinking couldn't be more wrong for an alcoholic. For us drinking alcohol is like breathing air. It is needed to live. The thought of stopping is absurd. Itís like asking us to stop breathing. We will do and say anything to get our hands on more. It becomes a 2nd job and for many their 1st job in life between making sure we have enough alcohol to last the night, the lies we have to tell, the hiding of all the alcohol in the house, the planning of when and where we will drink during each day. Not liking to go out because we aren't sure we will have access to enough alcohol while we are out. It consumes every single aspect of our lives and regardless of how hard it is we get up every day and get ourselves ready for the routine all over again.
You will hear all different kinds of methods to getting a drunk sober. There is no one miracle cure all that will fix everything. Some people simply have enough then one day decide to never touch alcohol again without any help. For others it takes years of going in and out of hospitals, rehabs and psychiatric wards before they had enough. Then there are those who never reach that point. Itís different for everyone. I had been hospitalized 5 times within a 6 month period last year. I even had a doctor tell me if I had stayed out a little longer my body would have given out and I would have died. That was during my third admittance and one day after being released I was back to drinking. They say an alcoholic must want to get better for themselves however I could not find that inner strength. I ended up getting sober for my son. Where I couldnít find the desire for myself I did find it in my son. The thought of my son growing up without a dad because I had died or because I was to drunk to be around him killed me. So I decided I was going to stop drinking cold turkey. The first 3 weeks was a living hell. I kept my sons picture and one of his stuffed animals by my side to remind me why I was doing this. Here I am 9 months later and I get up every morning knowing this is a life long fight that I take one day at a time.
I know how useless people can feel seeing there loved one not only ruining their own life but the lives of the people around them. This is not something you can fix. If you decide to stay in the relationship you have to come to understand that. I also recommend going to Al-anon. It will help you tremendously in learning how to better live and deal with an alcoholic. I also recommend the alcoholic going to AA. There is a big misconception of what AA is all about. Most peopleís idea of it is old men and low lives sitting around all miserable. So people donít want to be put in the same category and decide not to go. That is so far from the truth. I thought the same way until I went and saw it for myself. You have people from as young as 18 to those in there 80ís and 90ís from all walks of life. There is a saying people go to AA to stop drinking but stay for the thinking.
If anyone has any questions or ideas they would like to share with me please feel free to send me a PM.
I am beginning to believe that my exh will always choose alcohol because it excuses his bad behavior...at least in his mind. He is admitted that he reaches out to other women while drinking, he loses control, and therefore he is powerless over his choices thereafter.
I am not buying that anymore.
He makes the choice to drink. He makes the choice not to seek help. He also makes the choice to cheat.
I do believe that alcohol lowers our self control factor, but I still think we have choices. I know that if/when I drink I have no desire to go sleep with another man, text another man, sneak around. Its a choice.
My FWH just got his 2 month chip last Friday - 60 hard fought days.
He's going to meetings every night and I'm going to AL Anon 3-4 x week.
I am now dealing with the disease of alcoholism as well as his infidelity. He's told me that he wasn';t "present" during our first yaer of R due to the fact he was actively drinking. I get this. What's hard for me is that now dealing with the A has to wait - while he gets stronger in his program. I feel cheated - I was actively working on R, thought we were maing progress and now have to accept that his participation wasn't what I thought it was.
We've talked about responsibility vs accountability. He says that he is not responsible for his actions during his active addiction because he was "living in insanity" BUT he is accountable. when I looked those 2 words up in the dictionary they mean exactly the same thing. We attend an All Addictions meeting together every Monday and last night I brought this subject up hoping for some clarification. Nothing that I can really hold on to but I'm still trying to understand.
Addiction is an insidious disease and it tears families apart. I hope for both your family and mine that we can survive, recover and find happiness and serenity.
Keep up the great work........one day at a time.
He says that he is not responsible for his actions during his active addiction because he was "living in insanity" BUT he is accountable.
Is his sponsor telling him this? I thought part of sobriety was admitting your wrongs not saying you aren't responsible for them due to drinking?
Sorry but that really got to me
That's great that you are going to Alanon
I'm curious what others who have been affected by someone else's drinking think about the above statement.
AlAnon is so good for me - the comfort of knowing that other people really do understand is so soothing.
How it was explained t omy stbxWW was "You can't go forward looking in the rearview mirror. That guilt over what you have done is a relapse trigger. But, you are responsible for what you have done.". It was hard for me to grasp other than an alcoholic must be willing to accept the pain and chaos they have created, but not dwell on it for the rest of their lives.
My stbxWW took as not having to deal with it. Her favorite saying was what's done is done. While correct, you can't undo the past, you can strive to correct your actions for the present and have hope for the future.
My stbxWW was working trying to quit, attending AA, multiple stays in 5 day programs when she met the POS OM, also an alcoholic. They pick and chose what parts of the AA program they do - certainly not have a new relationship in the first year. Both also neglecting they were already married to people trying to help them.
I don't think she is working the program, but I don't know. I try to limit our conversations to the children. She would bait me into talking about us and then rewrite history, blameshift, etc to the point I'd loose it. Then she would use the anger to justify what she was doing and had done. Another 180 failure. She couldn't understand why I hated the POS OM, saying I didn't know him and how good he was. Wonderful prople don't screw other peoples wives...
Making amends is Step 9 and will take some time to get to I gather if truly working the program. I doubt I'll get amends from my stbxWW. She has yet to accept any responsibility for anything; the affair, the losing her job, etc.
[This message edited by betrayed1012 at 9:25 AM, June 23rd (Wednesday)]
One of the things I noticed when people start working the program is sometimes they start to project the literature onto other people. They start taking account of others peoples actions. They look at the world through the eyes of AA as if everyone should be working their own 12 step program. If they are not aware of this it can lead to problems. If you feel this is happening you might want to talk to your husband about it.
While my H used and drank, the first ten years of our marriage, he was a big gooey maudlin sap.
He has been sober from alcohol, weed, pills, etc. for more than a year and he has little to no feelings. Still.
I haven't gotten any sobbing apologies. He hasn't teared up with remorse from how badly he hurt me from his constant lying about the drugs and alcohol or the infidelity. And even now, although he can identify "bad" as a feeling, he just doesn't have any of what seem to me to be normal human emotions.
He goes to meetings, works his steps, has recently been trying IC more intensively. We had MC for like 6 months but since it's freaking Kaiser we could only get in once a month, which was woefully inadequate. I liked our MC but he didn't seem to have any powerful solutions, and FWH was unable to answer many of the questions put to him.
When I expressed my extreme frustration, our MC just sort of shook his head sadly and put his chin in his hand and asked me, "Yeah, I mean, how much longer do you want to go on like this?"
I'm trying to be patient, I really am, I realize his sobriety is a Big Deal and he is brand new in many ways and reinventing himself.
He is also terrified he might never have feelings again.
Is this normal? How long before he can cry, emote, respond like a normal person, or at least one whose feelings resemble a human and not an android?
I'm at the end of my rope and I have PLENTY of goddamn feelings, enough for three of us, which just pisses me off. Why do I have to do the lion's share here too? Feeling is exhausting! I wish I could just turn mine off!
Will he ever recover to the point of acting like a grown up man as opposed to a stunted child? I feel like I am waiting for him to catch up to me on some spiritual level, to know himself half as well as I already know my own self, and that he will never catch up because he is starting off so behind.
Any help? Experience? People in recovery or their spouses are welcome to respond.