When I say abuse I mean any form by any party. If the child is being used as a weapon against the other parent then I think that weapon should be taken away even if it is with NC or better mediated contact.
I think that most of these situation is so fueled by emotions it is extremely difficult to put child first.
I can see that some of these OW may try and control visitation out of desire to maintain contact with MM or out of shear bitterness over the situation. However; in reading about these situation for the last 4yrs I believe that many of these woman truly fear the treatment of OC in the presents of MM & BS.
I am not say that the BS would hurt the child physically but after reading how many verbally attack these children I believe that mom is warranted in her concern initially and should proceed cautiously with visitation. As the primary care giver for this child I think it is her duty to put boundaries in place to ensure that OC does not pay for who his mother is. Being an OW makes her no less concern for her child safety as being the wife and considering the volatility of these situation I think she should be more so.
Now, it does not sound to me that you are a threat to her child, but I did not betray your friendship, sleep with your husband and have a baby by him....KWIM.
I think the fact that your H is trying to do the right thing by you and OC, speak volumes about his character. I would suggest that if your H truly want to make this work with you and his child,he should agree to mediated visitation with a third party without you and without OW initially.
Give her time to build trust that MM has the child's wellbeing at heart and that as a father he will protect him as she would. If her true concern is the child's wellbeing and not just the desire to have MM back in her life, once that confidence is there she will have less resistance to you.
Kinda like after DDay, mm has to be an open book and giveup much of his privacy to regain the trust of BS for her to be comfortable in the relationship again.
Do these mountains that he is supposed to move include giving up his marriage and family?(especially considering that i am not insisting on nc)
i am not sure that is fair.
BTW, I don't think that sending letters, gifts, pictures ect.. is the same as no contact. I think it is a great alternative to make the child not feel abandoned when the adult emotions run so high that physical contact creates a hostel environment for the children...any of them.
he is a happy go lucky kid w/no idea how wrong his conception was but he adjusts well.
CNC, I hope that you would never be so cruel as to say this to this child. I personally would be too ashamed to put on paper the things you say about the children here.
This....I believe is a great example of why when contact is attempted OW has so much resistance. Sure it is easier to say "it's because she still want MM"... but what mother would want her child subjected to someone... anyone that could/would say such things that could destroy him. CNC I really hope you are in IC. The words that you speak will not only hurt OC, but they will keep you hurting, hurt your husband and eventually your own children.
I would like to think that having a child of our own H feels a huge difference in our child and the OC. I am sure he will never say anything...but it must be different.
[This message edited by MYOC&ME at 12:22 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
She put herself in my life when she repeatly thought she could have my life for years. What I do, I do for the sake of the OC not for their mother, she could burn in hell and I would not give a damn.
Yes there are some OW and FOW that did not intentionally decide that they were going to ruin someone elses marriage, but there are some out there who did.
So when I picked up the OC for visits, I tolerated her for the sake of the OC, but all she wanted to do was still have contact with my H whom she thinks is the only one who "understands".
We will most likely have permanent custody of the OC and I will not and have not said negative things to them about their mother. And if she decides to get her life together, I would not cut her out of their lives. I do that because I am a decent human being. But this is no koombaya moment.
I try to get thru this everyday, but I am not bottomless pit of forgiveness.
I am so sorry that the OW in your situation is doing this. My sister's H has an OW that pulls him into court to get more CS everytime she doesn't feel he is doing enough. He had physical custody the child for 9 months and the court still gave her the CS, they would not cut it off. My sister has had custody of her kids for 11 months and her EX is still getting the CS even after CPS took them out of his custody.
I hope things go ok for you. My past experience has been even when you think you are morally right or have a good case, things just seem to swing the other way.
she speaks about her child and herself as `we' in her emails(while accusing me of being unable to separate them.)
she slept with h the night that she found out that i was pregnant. it is unclear if that was the night that oc was conceived- or a little earlier. at any rate, she could not have known that she was preggers at that stage so it is the same intent-wise (i.e. told me congrats and then after i went to sleep...
i know, you may wonder how i can even look at h. me too sometimes but i have my reasons.)
so her latest was that the fact that i revealed this fact (her knowing of my pregnancy at conception)and my belief that the preg might not have been a total accident, to mutual friends was `defamatory' and "indicated (me)(and h's) attitude towards (ow &oc)".
i just think that if there is any hope for her son's relationship with his father and family she is going to have to stop identifying herself as one with the baby. i have seen this tendency with single moms before (including my sis) and as the mother of a baby i do get where it comes from.
but here is the thing. we will not be repairing things past civil- i am not interested in being friends
(or h being friends- they had an affair)
i want as little to do with her as is possible. i will never like her, i will never trust her, and at this point have seen nothing that changes my lack of respect for her and her choices. she does not own her shit in any way shape or form. she plays the martyr.
but i will tell you something else, i would never intentionally hurt a child's feelings. i feel very little for oc. i don't know him, the time i met him he was clingy and fussy and we didn't exactly bond w/ ow hovering. but i get ill watching people speak cruelly to kids on the street, and i would never do that, never pass judgement on his mother to him. when i say i feel very little towards HIM- i mean good or bad. to my surprise, just a random, pretty unfamiliar baby. and i will not have him in my life on a weekly or monthly basis, so that eases it too.
H does see the families as one on the same (which ow has labeled "the disfunctional notion of family incorporation that (h) wants to visit upon US".
but it is turning into a choice here. which i think is an awful thing for her to do to oc because h has already not chosen him once, effectivly. he moved 6000 miles away.
why compound that?
here is what i think part of the problem is (agreeing with you that some of it is what you said). i think she did not expect us to stay together (even if her and h did not end up a family) thus she did not anticipate having to make certain explanations to the child. he is the same age as out son, if he is in our life there is no way to fudge it. me and h have discussed it with a counsler, and there is no way he would support any stories of a love affair, oc will get from us an appropriate version of the truth, a truth i am sure that ow did not anticipate having to tell her child as she has not been strait with very many people in her life about this.
so if oc knows that daddy has been married for 10 years, than at some point he says it to her family (who she lied to about the father) etc. so she is desperatly trying to create an alternative reality for oc which include dad but not us as a family unit, but them as an alterno family unit. kwim? it is about her not having thought this out and still not owning her shit. imho.
wow i just drank a lot of coffee, sorry.
[This message edited by usuallycoping at 1:43 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
sure in the abstract they may say they love them all the same. and in the abstract maybe they do. mothers who give children up for adoption say this about kids they have not seen for 15 years.
but in reality love for a child is totally based on day to day care. and in these situations whether that child has his father on any kind of regular basis is largely based on which mother it has.
look, if i were not my son's mother, or if i had decided to d him over the affair,
my h would certainly have stayed in his home country, where his old friends, entire family, and a lot of work are. that being the case, oc would see him regularly, have a real father. my son would see him a few times a year.
he says as much; that he loves oc but it is an abstract concept. he'll see him at best 3times a yr. our child is the one who bottom he cleans mutiple times a day, whose first word was dada, who reaches for him when he tired or upset and puts his head down against his neck, who comes into our bed for cuddles every morning before work.
he wanted our baby, he rubbed my tummy, he saw him come out, he held him all night his first night in the world. he hoped she would abort or miscarry, give the child up for adoption. its may sound harsh but this is the truth.
and when he looks at our baby he sees a combo of himself and the woman he loves. he doesn't see this with oc (with some sadness he says this)
It is a bit different than divorce situations where the bonding took place before the split.
having just been through it, i feel there is something very primal and powerful about caring for a baby with someone you love that magnifies you feelings for your partner and the child to something quite overwhelming. it is why humans fight for there family unit. it is what a lot of ow want on a very basic level, because it is what we all want. maybe part of why some of us stick around in this sitch.
this does not mean that men do not love all the children very much and that different kinds of bonds develop, especially with older children. but i think to say that it does not matter who the mother is is disingenious. in these sitch's, right or wrong, it is all about who the mother is. c or nc- thats not about the child- it is about who the mother is.
these are things that neither i or h would ever say oc or our own child. but lovers, partners do talk about deep (maybe dark) feelings.
and i think this is a place where you can say things that are not for any child's ear.
look,eventually a kid in this situation is probably going to figure it out- especially with dob's like ours.
most likely including how utterly painful its conception was at the time to many people. if oc's family accept and love him/her as a person and have moved on they will be able to manage this reality and move on.
have met adult oc's who figured it out vvia eye color etc -not so pretty.
and there is no way to sugar coat it. the only way to hide it is by lying and/or nc.
with c, once they can count etc. the cat is out of the bag.
[This message edited by usuallycoping at 2:22 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
she did not anticipate having to make certain explanations to the child. he is the same age as out son, if he is in our life there is no way to fudge it. me and h have discussed it with a counsler, and there is no way he would support any stories of a love affair, oc will get from us an appropriate version of the truth, a truth i am sure that ow did not anticipate having to tell her child as she has not been strait with very many people in her life about this.
Why does everyone feel a need to have the child to know "their side of this"? I don't see how this benefit the child or the marriage. Trust me there will come a day when all the pieces will fit without anyone telling their version of the truth. There are married couples that have unplanned pregnancies, they don't sit in anticipation of the day the child will be old enough to tell that he/she unlike the other planned children and accident, or that mom and dad had fallen out of love and was even considering divorce but was forced to stay together because it came along.
I by no means plan to tell my son what a sorry mental case his father is and if I am luck "was". I will not lie to my son but I will only give explanations to that which he has questions about and then choose my word carefully. I will try and answer without belittling or placing blame on anyone . I think to blame the other parent to the child is the same as saying to the child that he is an undesirable situation that wouldn't be here if.... Why give them that mental picture?
Everyone know by now that I feel that even if that is how the adult(s) feel today...they need to get in therapy and get past it before they mentally destroy all these children to include the COM.
me, jumpng down now!!
[This message edited by MYOC&ME at 3:17 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
now she is realizing that if the kid is part of our family the basic facts will come out to these people in her life. i.e that we have a child a month older, were married at the time etc. her family is conservative.
when i say `get from us' i mean in terms of answers to any questions (which i suspect may come, from my experience with children, which is significant), not volunteered talks.
if he asks no questions, we will say nothing.
however, i think in long run that it is unlikely that neither child will ask.
if the boys discuss these things later, at an older age or if questions are asked by either of them they have to be addressed.
i am not talking about blaming ow. but, i do not want my son thinking that a having an affair is anything other than a mistake, which is what h considers it- he owns it and does not blame her.
it is not the same as an unplanned preg within a marriage. the married couple having sex in and of itself was not a mistake. this was. it was wrong. not oc, but the affair.
i don't know how anyone can think that raising boys to believe that fathering children by two different women at the same time is just fine and dandy. no big deal. to me that is outrageous. in a blended family it is not all about oc, it is also about the values my kids are taught.
there are healthy ways to do this. if our com was older we would tell him that daddy made a huge mistake but that oc is his brother, not a mistake, we love him, not his fault etc.
again, i know oc's that were fed all sorts of bull into adulthood and in their 30's found out true circumstances and were very, very angry at both their parents. in a divorce you tell kids the truth- mommy and daddy do not love each other anymore but they love you. why would you not be likewise honest to oc, if he asks the why's about his life circumstances? honesty gives this stuff less damaging power.
we all try to create a family narrative for our children. if that does not work out we create a different narrative. my narrative did not work out. i also have to find a way to be able to be open about the FACTS to my child grows up with in a way that respects him and lets him feel good about himself.
honestly, i think oc is much more likely to hear a parent bad mouthed from his mother at this point than from us.
ETA- I think it is very different than your sitch, and nc in general, where the child does not know his father.
the questions will be minimal for a long time. when the child sees both families you can't just answer questions with `your dad was not ready to be a dad" or whatever. It does not really matter- he has taken himself out of it.
this is the downside to c- everyone's needs have to be wighed and the child experiences both worlds and makes comparisons themselves.
do you think oc is not going to make internal judgments about why his brother lives with his father(and all that goes with that) and he only sees him occasionally, if nothing is said?
children always assume everything is their fault.
it seems cruel not to be prepared to address these concerns and make sure that they understand that these facts are the fault of the adult in their lives. Mistakes were made but not by them.
BTW - i have ic and mc and they both say agree that it is best to be prepared to answer questions, (age appropriate) honesty is best, this is how kids cope best.
[This message edited by usuallycoping at 4:58 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
The 9 yr. old never could understand why my kids hated him and he could never come over daddy's house. My H explained that my kids did not know that he was their brother and had told people that his father was dead. Why would you do that? Because I could not tell people that you were my son because it would have hurt my wife and other children.
Now I don't know if that was the right way to handle it and I am sure that it was one of the hardest conversation he ever had to have.
But I think that he had to be honest. It is like I told him you have been denying these OC for years trying to have 2 families and he said that is what kept him in the relationship longer than he wanted. Know that we are all together we are trying our best. But there is still jealousy and hostility with my kids.
It is an everyday struggle.
it seems cruel not to be prepared to address these concerns and make sure that they understand that these facts are the fault of the adult in their lives. Mistakes were made but not by them.
I agree that only the truth should be told when asked I just believe that the truth can be subjective in these situations. I think that most people can handle the truth even when it is not so pretty if it is delivered in a loving, caring compassionate manner.
I read what BMC's H told his OC about the situation. It sounded as if he was being honest and chose an approach to teach his son and not to berate his mother. I think this was a positive approach. I hope he threw in a little "Your my son and I love you" and "I am sorry for the situation that we put you in", "I will do my best to be there for you going forward".
in these sitch's, right or wrong, it is all about who the mother is. c or nc- thats not about the child- it is about who the mother is.
Also,a man's choice to have C vs NC is more reflective of who HE is as a man than who the mother or child is. IMO, to say that a man choose C vs NC because of who the mother is, is like saying he chose to have the affair based on who his wife was. We know that the choice to have the affair has nothing to do with who the wife or OW is but who he is. So why would we choose to believe that this is any different.
One other thing, these situations are not different than Divorce because he had a chance to bond. Read over in divorce and seperated forum. Some men can & often do walk away and go NC with their children of marriage following the divorce. I would wager that these are the same men that are capable of walking away from an OC.
[This message edited by MYOC&ME at 9:45 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
I mean you no harm and would like to be a source of support and I only know how to be honest. If you would rather me not respond to your posts please feel free to say so.
I have followed your story and was quit concerned when I had not seen you post in what seemed like a long time.
CS and paternity is not filed seperately. The mom file for CS and your husband should be hand served and given a date to appear in court. He then have a few options. He can go to court and deny paternity at which time the judge will order a paternity test and another court date will be scheduled based on the results of the test.
Your H does have the option of admitting to paternity and setting up child support through the CS agency without the need to go to court. He can even have the test done through the agency without actually going to court.
I highly recommend that you prepare for the worst and we will pray with you for the best.
Keep you head up.
but if they are in love with the mother they are (at least in my experience) more tuned in to the baby from pregnancy on. they go the the ultrasounds, they feel the first kick, they see it born, cut the cord etc.
newborns are pretty impossible to spend much time with seperate from their mother until they are at least a few months old (particularly breastfed)
so in this type of situation they have often missed a huge amount in between. they just dont bond with the baby in the same way.
women are right there with their kids hanging off of them no matter who the dad is. our babies are still part of our bodies for the first 6 months. it is just not the same with men.
i get what you are saying about nc, it being about the father. but it does not really contradict what i am saying.
it is about what the mother means to the father- of course the fact that he has a child with someone he does not love and had no intention even attempting to make a life with is a reflection on him. (and in your case- that he planned it- yuck!
there is just not the same opportunity to bond, often because for a good while he is going to have to put the M first, which probably means a period of nc.
BW is under no obligation to say- `go on and bond with oc, we can work this out later.'
that can take time and then there is the angry and disappointed ow to contend with. this can be too much for the recovering marriage. and then he is left with that choice again and the child is abstract.
this is what is happening with us. he is sad, but ready to give up. there is not much point in going legal- unmarried fathers have 0 rights in that country and we can't really afford lawyers fees, or frankly the energy in managing an international court case. we also have busy lives, cs payments to make etc.
the difference between this and the a is that then the man is only thinking of himself. at this point he has to look at what is best for everyone at this point- with BW finally at the top of the list.
sometimes this is at cost to himself as well as oc and certainly ow but when people play with fire, people get burned. even innocent ones.
i do not think the truth is that subjective. for either oc or com:
`dad's A with your mother(oc's mom) was a mistake and wrong and very painful to bw/momma, com etc. husbands and wives should be faithful. i love your mom/stepmom very much and i always have. we all love you and none of this is your fault."
what is so subjective about that?
You are say that a man loves his children based on who their mother is...correct?
If you believe that than you must believe that the man stop loving that child if/when he stop loving the mother. I don't believe that one bit.
What I can buy is that a man base his responsibility to a child base on his precieved responsibility to that child's mother. Which is why we hear of men that divorce remarries and put more energy into raising his new wife's children(even if they are not biologically his) than the children(his biologically) with his ex.
I do get that men are different in their approach to relationships in general. I do get that bonding for men is primarily post delevery. I also believe that to love you offspring is a built in function of nature. We (men & women sometimes make the choice not to love it and work not to.
[This message edited by MYOC&ME at 10:35 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]
i do not think it is an innate biological function of men to love their children, i think it is learned.
babies need their mothers to love them to survive. biologically speaking, mothers may need the father's(or a man) to love them for them(the mom) to survive while they are tied up and weak birth, postpartum etc. hence family.
women's bond to their children is not based on their genetic makeup, it is based on a vulnerable creature that they are responsible for. men dont have that total reliance from conception on, they are taking all cues from the mother- if they are in love with her.
i know h looked at me through the preg for how he should feel- he was excited but he did not `get it'. i `got it' from the moment i got that positive preg test.
also, men can compartmentalize easier than women. i know that h has to practically pinch himself to remind himself that oc exists, he is so consumed by our baby. i never forget oc exists-kwim?
and tbh, if it were not for the societal pressure he felt `to do the right thing' i just think he would have walked from the outset and maybe get to know the kid in 12 years or so.
i don't think it is exactly about love or not love for the child, i just think the love is abstract without the momma to ground it, at least initially (generally speaking)before the child becomes a little person. hell my dad shows no interest in the grandkids till they hit about a year- and he is a great dad. but my mom said it re this sitch- he just would not know how to go about dealing with/ bonding with a baby without her. the family is all about her and she is quite certain that if this happened with them c or nc would rely entirely on whether she decided to take oc on. she is his world and family- first and foremost. and that is what his bonding with us came through that unit.
as i said i know so many people who have never met their dads, it is not a coincidence , and not ` men are assholes'.
if you look at it biologically, random samples have shown that up to 20% of children are being unknown to all parties, raised by men who not their bio dads. this whole openness and blending thing is very recent. and i am a modern gal, so ok.
but up to 20/30 years ago it would have absolutely been the done thing in this stitch to walk away. maybe meet the kid as an adult. more people have oc stories than i ever could have imagined and that is how most of them go.
i think it is sort of inconceivable to women because again, we are so one with our babies for so long.
[This message edited by usuallycoping at 11:16 PM, December 16th (Sunday)]