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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Sexual Abuse Survivors/Spouses of SAB's
hurts
♂ Member
Member # 9444
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, April 21st (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

716, yeah, I can hear what your saying real loud, as that is also my sitch. And it is tough to stand by when you see the aftermath of the SAb and because of the defensive systems it kind of blinds folks.

Rise - if I am reading this right - have you tried or done IC to try and manage the demons of your SAb. And did the A bring all of back to surface for you. I am sorry that all of this crap has come into your life, I know it can do that as fast a s a snap of the fingers.

I know there are some very wise folks here who deal with this. I am just a spouse who is trying to learn the balance of this stuff, by my self. I am the BH.


Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"
Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
--- Charles M. Schulz
SO if I check my pulse, and it is not there, do I get the day off?

Posts: 8381 | Registered: Jan 2006 | From: At Home
riseofthephoenix
♀ Member
Member # 18526
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, April 22nd (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

yeh about 10 years ago I started IC and began dealing with the pain from my childhood. i needed some space and had a lot of issues for awhile around sex. I think it pushed my H into the background like he felt he couldnt ask for it or be pushy. but he never read the books i gave him on how to avoid losing himself and his sexual needs/need for intimacy going unfulfilled. so i think that is some of what eventually years later led up to his A.

and, yes, it does bring it all right back, the betryaal all over again. someone on the other thread in JFO said it feels like in a relationship you will always get screwed over. I thought I had found The One, the nice guy who would always loveme. Nope, guess again. Hurt me like they all eventually do. It's a very jaded place my mind inhabits these days.

As the partner have you read Allies in Healing? Thats what i gave my H but he never read. Shame. It could have maybe prevented all this for us!

[This message edited by riseofthephoenix at 9:33 PM, April 22nd (Tuesday)]


me (BS) 39 / STBXH 39 / separated 10 mos. / couple 17 yrs / D-day 6/27/07 / D-day "just friends" about April 1, 2010 / I think that's 3 in total that I found out about


Posts: 122 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: PA
HeavyE
♂ Member
Member # 19333
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, May 1st (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The past two and a half weeks have been total hell for me, but I am at peace with my decision.

I only recently found about about WA(s). In discussing her affairs it was revealed to me that she was SA by a youth minister at her church (age 15) and raped by her cousin 8 years ago (we've been married 13) while drunk. I confronted the cousin and he acknowledges that it happened. I did this for my wife as she has been unable to do this for herself. I wanted him to know that another person knows about it and now he has to deal with it. My wife did not want me to do this, but I explained to her I had to for her to heal. She is now glad that I confronted him with this and it no longer remains a secret.

Like most SAB's she has never been able to discuss what happened with her parents or other family members as she believes that it was her fault, that she should have been able to do something, etc. She has kept this to herself for 25 years.

This past Monday she began therapy for her SAB. Together we are going to go to MC begining next week. I have been to counseling for the past two weeks.

The reason for this post is to let any other spouses of SAB's know that there is help and hope.

In my mind and heart, I am at peace with my decision to help her. I know that there will be tough times ahead and my mind may not be as clear as it is today. We are both willing to deal with this. Mind you it does not make the A any easier to deal with, but I am at peace because I have sympathy and compassion for what she has gone through.

For us both to be willing to work through this is nothing less than a miracle. I have a strong belief in God and right now he is doing for me what I am unable to for myself.

Don't be quick to destroy your marriage because of their actions. My limited knowledge on this is that it is very typical for someone who has been abused. Again it doesn't justify their A. If anything it has strenthened my love and compassion for her.


You can't change the wind, but you can adjust your sails.

Me Tarzan
Her Jane

Reconciled
D-Day 4/14/08


Posts: 9561 | Registered: Apr 2008 | From: Birthplace of America's Music
AppAE127
♀ Member
Member # 17990
Default  Posted: 8:38 AM, May 2nd (Friday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel as though I've found this thread far too late. I guess I'll just interject myself, and those of you who frequent it can point me in the right direction.

My (non-A) story:

When I was nine years old, I was SA'ed by my then-music teacher. I honestly don't remember very many details. I remember one clear incident in which I was at a community function and when I tried to walk away from my abuser, he grabbed my arm and pulled me close to his body. I can also remember my older and younger brother walking away. It took well over six months (I think?) before I told. The truth is, I only told because I was "triggered" by the sex education we were receiving at the time--the whole "good touch, bad touch" thing. I was afraid to tell my parents, but I did one night, and after many years I learned that they immediately got on the phone with someone big (my dad was a civilian employed through the military and we were living on an air base in Japan). Japan at the time had minimal laws regarding SA (I believe it was something like, "No abuse without penetration") and since we were all civilians (including my abuser) it was pretty much swept under the rug and my abuser was transferred to another base. I endured some things afterwards--interviews with lawyers, my first ob-gyn visit at the ripe age of 9, and my parents immediately put me into counseling. Looking back, I do not recall ever talking about the abuse. I do recall making puppets and talking about school, friends, etc.

Fast forward--I had incredibly low self-esteem. I mean, low. I felt ugly, and for some reason, that perception was far worse than any other "insult" that could be thrown at me. In high school, I used sex (oral, for some reason I held on to my "real" virginity with a tight fist) as a way to validate that I was not ugly. I literally thought that if I could get a guy off, it meant I was attractive. That was what I sought. I was so very disappointed in these high school boys when that's all I received, and really I didn't receive that either. And there were a lot. Of boys. When I went to college it was the same exact pattern of behavior, only I stepped up the ante and was using real sex to have power over men. I honestly, cannot believe I escaped that with my health.

Fast forward again. I met my husband, who I predictably tried to turn into a one night stand. Obviously, that was not the case. During our relationship, I have cheated and been cheated on. The greatest, obviously, was the affair I chose to have recently with xOM.

It wasn't until someone sent me a PM that I began to look more closely at my past to see if I could figure out why I have set up such self-destructive behavior patterns. xOM needed "saving." But more importantly, I thought that xOM could finally "save" me. I think that's what I've been searching for my entire life.

And here's where I need some serious insight (and I realize many of you may think this is not that important )

My sex life is completely fucked up and always has been. I thoroughly enjoy certain sexual behaviors, like kissing, petting, etc. However, I am not present during sex. Not really. I go through the motions and it does feel good, but I have never, in my life, climaxed with another person during sex. I realize that this is very common, but it's not the same to me. I have never associated my own pleasure with sex. During sex, I am on a mission to prove that I am attractive, even to my husband who has shown me in countless ways that I am attractive and that it has nothing to do with my ability to get him off.

Is this a common situation? Can anyone point me towards resources that may be able to help? I am at a complete loss as to how to begin this process and so incredibly overwhelmed.

And please, don't sugarcoat it. I am here to figure this out. PM me if you feel that's easier.

ETA for typos

[This message edited by AppAE127 at 8:39 AM, May 2nd (Friday)]


Dday~January 15, 2008
R'ed. Now I just gotta fix me.

"And I won't cry
If you can't love me
Like the way it used to feel.
We had our summer on Long Island
Now there's wounds that never heal."


Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: United States
Betrayedbookworm
♀ Member
Member # 16289
Default  Posted: 7:42 PM, May 4th (Sunday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

AppAE127, I don't have words of wisdom for you as I am new to this thread but I just want to say that I commend you for the way you are looking within yourself and are motivated to work through this!


I am posting here because recently my WH told me that there was sibling incest in his family when he was young. He did not offer details and I did not ask. He said that they were kids and did not know it was wrong. When his parents found out/caught them, they made it clear that what they were doing was wrong. But they did not talk about it, and they did not explain why.

And so they kept doing it, knowing it was wrong, but continued do it. He never told anyone about it (because he knew people would not accept him and he would be an outcast, he said), he never dealt with it. He just put it away inside himself.

And he said his A has felt just like that; he knows it is wrong, he wants to stop, and keeps doing it, knowing it is wrong.
He tucked it inside himself and didn't even really think about how it would affect us, because to him it was completely separate from our relationship.

So I certainly can see a connection between his compartmentalization, etc.

This is all new to me -- have any of you had any experience with this? Can you offer any insight? I don't know where sibling incest fits in with sexual abuse.

Thanks in advance


Me - BS
Him - WS

Posts: 200 | Registered: Sep 2007
smokenfire
Member
Member # 5217
Default  Posted: 4:59 AM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

<vent>

I am in MASSIVE painful let's deal with all the feelings you have repressed so you can actually live kind of a therapy with the most awesome person EVER

Understand I am a long term SAB (ten plus years, multiple persons, full on sexual abuse). I do not even know who I am due to disassociation.

So, lovely mother calls me last night. I suspect she had been drinking.

I tell her I do not know if I will meet up with my brother when he comes to my state for vacation, not to see us, going to a popular tourist destination because right now I am very angry with him.

She is not aware that he too was sexually abusive towards me. He was however, outsdie of that very sadistic towards me to a ridiculous and not I do not believe "normal" degree.

She launched into a tirade about how her sister had been in therapy behind how she treated her and that I never go angry with my father and was quick to forgive him and I should just get over my brother.

(Note: The deal with my father is a lot like that whole kidnapper, kidnap victim thing - I hvae not so much touched that yet - though I have had some anger)

She was being her nasty hyper critical self.

I told her she didn't have a clue and hung up on her. OMG whatever.

Seriously?

I can't believe she even said that to me. He has always been her "pet" child - I am not about to go there with her. She called back the kids told her I was not here. I am going to email her at some point and tell her to ask my brother why she thinks I might be angry with him.

let someone else be the teller for a change.

Whatever.

ETA:

I got an apology email, but even still she doesn't get it - I told her she should read about long term sexual abuse and the affects so she might better understand. I told her I excelled at appearing "normal" and that I was no longer willing to do that.

drat

still whatever.

[This message edited by smokenfire at 5:17 AM, May 5th (Monday)]


I have a very strict no returns policy - if you got him - you have to keep him.
Don't kick me in the mouth and then complain about how I bleed...

Posts: 5961 | Registered: Aug 2004
AppAE127
♀ Member
Member # 17990
Default  Posted: 7:06 PM, May 5th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, betrayed. That's pretty heavy stuff. I haven't found anything yet in all of my research that focused on Affairs and SAB in a context together, but I will send you a website I found pretty helpful so far. PM coming your way. :)


Dday~January 15, 2008
R'ed. Now I just gotta fix me.

"And I won't cry
If you can't love me
Like the way it used to feel.
We had our summer on Long Island
Now there's wounds that never heal."


Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: United States
noyeast
♀ Member
Member # 17879
Default  Posted: 7:28 PM, May 7th (Wednesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

App - I'd like to see anything you found helpful, too, if you wouldn't mind.

ny


me- 39 ws
him - 48 dh
m - 17 yrs
3 dds

Posts: 98 | Registered: Jan 2008
AppAE127
♀ Member
Member # 17990
Default  Posted: 9:44 PM, May 17th (Saturday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay. "The Courage to Heal" came in the mail this week. If you are an adult surivor of childhood sexual abuse, this should be your recovery bible.

But I was shocked. It has a lot of exercise at the end of each section, and you're supposed to free write things, for a set amount of time. I did half an hour--which actually flew by and it surprisingly easy.

However. I look at it now, and it's indecipherable. I cannot read it. The handwriting looks as though it belongs to someone else, and the spelling is horrible. It's the strangest thing I have every seen, and it actually completely freaked me out. So, if you purchase the book, and you're not in IC, beware. :)

My next project for the week is finding an IC specifically suited to deal with my childhood SA. I hope those of you who occasionally post/read here are doing well with your own recovery process.

Anyone else completely scared that recovery will ruin their marriage?


Dday~January 15, 2008
R'ed. Now I just gotta fix me.

"And I won't cry
If you can't love me
Like the way it used to feel.
We had our summer on Long Island
Now there's wounds that never heal."


Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: United States
noyeast
♀ Member
Member # 17879
Default  Posted: 7:26 AM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

App, I started counseling to deal with csa, was put on meds for ptsd symptoms, and started doing EMDR therapy to deal with some of it - and then the relationship between me and mm kind of took precedence, and I haven't been dealing with the csa for the past month or so.

I did tell my IC that I know it is all interrelated, but do I have to go back and deal with all that first, before I get to heal, or can we start with here, knowing that some of it is because of that, and deal with aspects of it that come up as we are dealing with here (hope that makes sense.) She said a little of both would be best, so I guess that is what we will do.

However, I did do a work book - twice. Started to work through it a third time when IC suggested the Courage to Heal book, which I started but have put aside for a while. At this point, I think the csa has been tucked back into its little box. I could probably go another few years before it reared its ugly head again. (I'm not going to - I'm staying in IC. But I probly could.)


me- 39 ws
him - 48 dh
m - 17 yrs
3 dds

Posts: 98 | Registered: Jan 2008
healingtree
♀ Member
Member # 15467
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are all so brave for sharing...

APP - the way you described the way you "used sex" and are not present...

Hello! Waving hand...I totally get it...been there done that still at times now struggling not to "perform"...

FWH letting memories in slowly...we'll never have the full details, but how much do you really need to remember? Talking more openly about "mom" issues...which is part of the reason I think he latched on to me in the first place...someone who wouldn't abandon him to a monster...

Which I haven't.

But combine my SAb issues with needing to perform to be accepted and now finally rejecting that, with his need for a "mommy" that will give him unconditional love so he can learn what he should have learned from his abusive parent and didn't...

Its not a very sexy combination.

I battle to see myself as attractive and he jokingly calls me grandma

It is so confusing...

Somehow, some way, some day I pray that we can both move beyond these beliefs we have been taught about ourselves, and just be free to love each other.

BTW, that post about the incest, and doing bad things and hiding it...that nailed the connection between CSAb and infidelity on the head I think...

Especially for the survivors who were too young to get the concept of it being "wrong". FWHs sister never came forward until another little girl was abused, because she thought the abuse was "normal"...

I can't even imagine the nightmares my FWH lives with...or the true confusion in his mind...


FBS 1st D-day 7-11-07, 2nd DDay Post-Breakup in 8-12
HIM - Doesn't Matter Anymore
The only thing we can change about the past is how we look at it.

Posts: 8324 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Here and Now
noyeast
♀ Member
Member # 17879
Default  Posted: 8:26 AM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Especially for the survivors who were too young to get the concept of it being "wrong". FWHs sister never came forward until another little girl was abused, because she thought the abuse was "normal"...

Healing - I was an adult and did not realize that what my father did was called 'abuse' - I believed it was "inappropriate" but didn't really put the two together. Took months with a counselor for me to stop calling it that and start actually calling it abuse.

He was authoritative, and when he said jump, we all jumped. He taught us not to cry - literally, I used to not be able to. I honestly think that if I were to be attacked in a dark parking lot, I would not be able to scream. Still. It definitely ties into my A...here was someone that I felt close to, that had that same authoritative character... luckily, the mm had more morals than my dad, and we never had sex.


me- 39 ws
him - 48 dh
m - 17 yrs
3 dds

Posts: 98 | Registered: Jan 2008
healingtree
♀ Member
Member # 15467
Default  Posted: 3:28 PM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have my own issues with my past...but I was older, a teenager, and had a firmer sense of what what right and wrong in my situation.

I look at my FWH as a good man, a wonderful individual, who was handed a crappy crappy WRONG deal when he was a kid.

Since we have become more open to each other, it truly shakes me when talks about things in his past that to me are just so friggin wrong and for him it is just his past.

There have been issues that he percieves of as normal - everyone does that - and I want to tell him, no....they don't sweetie...

Any advice (besides IC - he won't open up at this point in time) on how to gently let him know that what happened to him that he deems "normal" or "not so bad" really were?

He says his childhood was just that, not so bad...then he tells me about all the blank spots that he doesn't remember...

Saying a prayer for my fwh (((Mr. HT))) and everyone else going through this struggle...

QUESTION:

Would it be worth it for me to get "Allies in Healing" when my FWH refuses to go back and dig through the past?

[This message edited by healingtree at 3:34 PM, May 19th (Monday)]


FBS 1st D-day 7-11-07, 2nd DDay Post-Breakup in 8-12
HIM - Doesn't Matter Anymore
The only thing we can change about the past is how we look at it.

Posts: 8324 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Here and Now
just tired
♀ Member
Member # 11609
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh healingtree, you just said what I feel. My husband tells me things in his past like it wasn;t wrong.And i jsut look at him.

I did tell him once that his dads girlfriend having sex with him when he was 15 was very wrong and sexual abuse. He really did not comment. Then she took him to the neighbors. good grief.


Posts: 1008 | Registered: Aug 2006
healingtree
♀ Member
Member # 15467
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, May 19th (Monday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Holy crap just tired...

You just knocked me over...

Don't worry, I didn't get hurt

But what you said about the girlfriend...him being fifteen...try like age 11-12 (a little fuzzy on the age thing)...

Makes me wonder, if he was taught that its okay for a KID to have sex with a grown-up...

ETA!!!!! - I don't believe in any way shape or form that he believes that kids having sex is okay...no no no...but when HE was a kid...lets just say adults took advantage of him, and
he figured that was just normal for him...like, cool, I had sex with my sexy teacher kind of thing...

I don't have fear that he will repeat the past in that way...I have thought about it, and feel secure in that.

Now that i got that clear...ETA over.

I have to admit that it scares me to think what else is "okay" as far as his sexuality though our relationship...and how much behavior has been hidden, and just how far down this goes.

I love my H. I have promised myself that I will stay as long as the infidelity doesn't re-occur...and he is so incredibly determined to do right by me.

It is so scary how we assume tht everyone agrees on what is "okay" and "normal"...but it is really based on experience.

(((just tired)))

I have found the need to let go of the words: normal, okay, special, judgment, wrong, right...the list goes on....I hold onto the word "healing" for dear life.

ETA2
I get the compartmentalization thing. My FWH compartmentalizes "history"...forgetting whole periods of time.

I compartmentalize "feelings/emotions" in other words, I don't forget that something has happened...it just remains a fact in my head. No feeling, no processing, no growth or healing...just a photo of a moment I look away from.

We can't even compartmentalize in the same way!!!

Somehow, someway, and for some reason....God brought us together.

Simple as that.

[This message edited by healingtree at 4:44 PM, May 19th (Monday)]


FBS 1st D-day 7-11-07, 2nd DDay Post-Breakup in 8-12
HIM - Doesn't Matter Anymore
The only thing we can change about the past is how we look at it.

Posts: 8324 | Registered: Jul 2007 | From: Here and Now
AppAE127
♀ Member
Member # 17990
Default  Posted: 6:42 PM, May 20th (Tuesday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just caught all of the most recent messages...

noyeast--I can completely understand what you mean about putting it away in its little box. I just finally called an IC yesterday, and I'm waiting (??? is this normal????) for his stuff to come in the mail, he wanted to explain what he does. Maybe different types of therapies? Anyway. I have kept this little part of me in a box for 16 years, only acknowledging it once to xOM during a conversation at the bar, when I started to wonder if maybe it was a bigger deal than I orginally thought. The Courage to Heal...is exhausting. And I'm afraid of it, and what's happened to me so far while reading it. But I will keep at it, until I get some guidance in the form of IC.

healingtree--It was a very hard realization for me to come to, to be honest. I spent a lot of time pretending that I felt a lot of things for people I really didn't feel anything for. And seriously, I may as well be shooting a porno for how "perfomance" based my sex life is...I don't know that I've ever been *truly* intimate with someone on that level. I don't personally know anything about Allies in Healing, but some of the things you mentioned about FWH feeling things were "normal" so troubles me. I don't know that he'll ever be able to "get it" without IC, so hopefully that becomes an option soon. I applaud you so much for trying to learn and understand as much as you can. I can only imagine how hard it must be for you too.

Oh, and what is EMDR therapy?


Dday~January 15, 2008
R'ed. Now I just gotta fix me.

"And I won't cry
If you can't love me
Like the way it used to feel.
We had our summer on Long Island
Now there's wounds that never heal."


Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: United States
just tired
♀ Member
Member # 11609
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good advice on using healing instead of wrong etc. When I say that I can tell it bothers him. Like I am calling him bad. Thanks for bringing that to my attention Healingtree.

Posts: 1008 | Registered: Aug 2006
heart_less
♀ Member
Member # 12501
Default  Posted: 3:06 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A coo-worker spoke to me today. Her breath stunk. Instantly.....

I could smell the acid of his breath. I could feel the calluses of his hands, the slobber attached to his tongue, and the overpowering strength of his muscles. And I realized I feel that every single time I see him. Every single time that I know, I have no way of avoiding him. Every time I pick up the phone and say.... Hi Dad.

I hate him sometimes. That makes me sad.

[This message edited by heart_less at 3:10 PM, May 22nd (Thursday)]


Me: FWW (40)
Him: BS (45)
Married 15 yrs
DDay 2-18-06

“Misfortunes from the outside, one can endure. They are accidents. But to suffer for one’s own faults – Ah! There is the string of life.”
~Oscar Wilde


Posts: 158 | Registered: Oct 2006 | From: Michigan
just tired
♀ Member
Member # 11609
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh heartless, hugs and blessings to you.

Posts: 1008 | Registered: Aug 2006
noyeast
♀ Member
Member # 17879
Default  Posted: 10:42 PM, May 22nd (Thursday), 2008View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

App - EMDR is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It is a type of therapy used for people who have had traumatic experiences - basically, the left side of your brain deals with language and logic, the right side deals with emotion. When you have a traumatic experience, sometimes it can get trapped in the right side of the brain - the left side shuts down because it is so horrible. So, you never really process what happened. EMDR is a technique that has you remember either the incident or some feeling associated with the incident, and then has you stimulate both sides of your brain with eye movements (following a finger, or in my IC's case, watching a moving light on an lcd bar). They are using it a lot with soldiers coming home with PTSD, so even though I don't understand it wholly, it has good anecdotal evidence that it works.

It did work, although it is difficult. The first time, after a few minutes of it, I told her I didn't want to play her game anymore. We did it a few more times, though, and the nauseous feeling and panic I used to feel at one memory has substantially faded, although I still haven't really resolved it. I was afraid to try it, honestly, afraid I would not be able to stop once the memories started, but it doesn't work that way - the counselor helps you get your brain to a safe place before you stop so that you aren't drowning in it all week.

It helps, but as you saw from my thread in waywards, I still have tons of stuff to work on besides the flooding memories. I'm very glad that I am working through this with someone who is qualified this time - I don't think the last person I worked with really was (heck, I know she wasn't, I was the first csa survivor she had dealt with) and it makes a HUGE difference.

NY

ETA - I don't know about waiting for information to get to you, when I called for an appointment, I got a call back from someone who basically did an "intake" on me to decide who I would best fit with, and then that counselor called me back to schedule an appointment. Also, definitely try to see someone who has experience with this instead of trying to deal with it yourself. Sometimes we have the answers, but it takes someone else to ask the right questions. Other times, we have questions and need the information put into order so we can get the answers, but its hard to do that without help.

[This message edited by noyeast at 10:49 PM, May 22nd (Thursday)]


me- 39 ws
him - 48 dh
m - 17 yrs
3 dds

Posts: 98 | Registered: Jan 2008
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